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daven
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08-23-2007, 10:31 PM
Post subject: BvsB, aggression on paired flop. Best play?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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I thought villain's flop bet was an attempt to steal the pot. When he called the re-raise and then raised the turn i became less sure. Is folding the best option here?
Party Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (7 handed)
Preflop: Hero is BB with  ,  .
5 folds, SB completes, Hero checks,
Flop: (6 SB)  ,  ,  (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.
Turn: (3 BB)  (2 players)
SB bets, Hero ?
and then a few hands later, same table... Similar situation, should I bet out with the full house, or be afraid of quads/overpair (QQ, KK,AA)?
Party Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (6 handed)
Preflop: Hero is BB with  , .
1 fold, MP calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.
Flop: (3 SB)  ,  ,  (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP calls, SB calls.
Turn: (4.50 BB)  (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ?
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Without more info on the villain I'd probably fold the first hand (or possibly call it down). He might have tried a steal with something like k4o and got a lucky flop, or he might be hoping his wild aggression will knock you out. He might also have an overpair. Definitely watch that player a lot to see what kinds of hands he plays and is aggressive with.
Second hand is a bit wierder. He might have a 5, but then why would he just call your flop raise? He might also be trying to bluff hard, or he might have a middle PP. I don't see him with QQ-AA, or he'd have raised preflop. Your boat is probably good - I'd probably lose a few bets on this hand.
You definitely need some reads on that player - what does he raise with, when is he aggressive. If you folded to his major aggression in the first hand, he might be trying for a repeat performance.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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The first hand is a fold imo. You're either way behind to a flush , 88+, 4, J, A8, or K8, or you're way ahead of a weaker 8 or total bluff. This is .10/.20 so you can't read too much into your opponent's actions, but given his played i'd probably narrow his hands down in (order of decreasing likelihood) to a flush, an 8 with a heart kicker, an 8 without a heart kicker, a semi-bluff with a heart, a complete bluff, or a 4. This means you have 3-5 outs if youre behind (which is likely the case) and gives him 3-9 outs if you're ahead. In a small pot, I'd be folding the turn here without a solid read that my opponent bluffs too much or overplays his hands.
In the second hand given his play so far you can expect him to have a J about 90% of the time, so folding would be a big mistake. You might raise but since he'd re-raise with either a J, 5, or QQ+ and fold everything else there isn't any value in it. I'd just call down and expect to split the pot.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Meh, I'd probably raise turn on hand 1 and check behind river. Just for information's sake. Hand 2, obv showdown.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Hand 1: Raise pre-flop. A pair of Qs or 8s will figure to be best, he's probably really weak and you have position on him. As played, this pot is really small and I could find a fold on the turn. However, some guys I'm calling down here. Getting hyper-aggro becomes a better play if you build this pot a bit pre-flop.
Hand 2: You need to find a fold to the flop donk against a lot of players. On the turn I'm inclined to call it down. Raising to knock out another Jack sounds sexy, but letting 5x 3-bet you on a big street and encouraging hands drawing pretty much dead to you to fold are more likley and far worse results.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Hand 1: Raise pre-flop. A pair of Qs or 8s will figure to be best, he's probably really weak and you have position on him.
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Yeah i like raising Q8 against a lone SB limper too.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Hand 2: Raising to knock out another Jack sounds sexy...
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Interesting. Are you folding a J to two bets on the turn against two opponents here if you're MP? I think i'd be suspicious enough to call it down, though i might have to puke-fold if SB came back with a 3bet.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Interesting. Are you folding a J to two bets on the turn against two opponents here if you're MP?
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Pot is too small given that the action is telling me that at best I'm winning half the pot. Put another 4+ BB into the pot and I would have a real decision. But I think you pretty quickly illustrated why I hate raising to knock out a Jack, too many players are incapable of a fold that should be routine.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Pot is too small given that the action is telling me that at best I'm winning half the pot...too many players are incapable of a fold that should be routine.
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Since i'm mainly at 1/2 it may well be different in the levels you play at. But wouldn't a smart player in the middle go for an overcall with quad fives here? Maybe not if he's expecting a lot of action from a J, i dunno.
It just seems like every second or third time I see this the raiser turns over a J on the river and the other guy turns over 66-TT (or folds). You just see too many people raising with a J here to fold one yourself, imho.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Ok, i think i see it now.
You stand to gain about 6BB for the price of 3 by calling if the raiser has a J, a profit of 3 BB. You lose 3 BB if the raiser has a 5. If the SB has the 5 he's going to re-raise (if you're lucky) and you have to fold, costing 2 BB. So the chance of splitting needs to be 62.5% to make calling the raise correct. So yeah, not worth it unless the raiser is a bluff-o-matic.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
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Location: Northern Virginia
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I'm a station and I'm not folding either hand here. Blind vs blind in LHE I'm rarely folding a pair, let alone TP on the flop.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Thanks for all the feedback. Reading it and thinking some more, Hand 1 is an easy fold, or at best a call. Not a raise. He ended up showing his cards, K4o.
Hand 2, I called the turn, so did the other player. We both called the river as well. SB had quads, but i think calling down was ok.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I think you're being somewhat results-oriented in thinking these hands were misplayed. I have called down many players in situations similar to Hand 1 and been shown ace high or some other ridiculous hand. In Hand 2, how can you even think about folding?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
In Hand 2, how can you even think about folding?
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I could make a list, although it's really hard without starting put put people on play styles.[/list]
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I don't fold full houses for one bet in limit when I only lose to quads or a big pocket pair, and have no reason to anyone has either.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I don't fold full houses for one bet in limit when I only lose to quads or a big pocket pair, and have no reason to anyone has either.
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you folded the 2nd nuts for 1bet!!!!
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I don't fold full houses for one bet in limit.
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I think the flop should default to fold. I would only raise if the SB is known to take shots at flops like that with air.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I don't fold full houses for one bet in limit when I only lose to quads or a big pocket pair, and have no reason to anyone has either.
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you folded the 2nd nuts for 1bet!!!! |
And that was a completely different situation. Didn't I say in that thread that it was probably an incorrect fold anyways?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
I don't fold full houses for one bet in limit when I only lose to quads or a big pocket pair, and have no reason to anyone has either.
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you folded the 2nd nuts for 1bet!!!! |
And that was a completely different situation. Didn't I say in that thread that it was probably an incorrect fold anyways? |
Sigh, I was just joking around
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