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Bottom Two Pair...is it worth holding on to in a 9ring?

  
 
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roymunson451
Old 02-06-2006, 08:56 PM     Post subject: Bottom Two Pair...is it worth holding on to in a 9ring? #1 (permalink)  
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One of the hands that I hit frequently, and I have the least amount of strategy to play, is bottom two pair.

I'm trying to compile my own strategy guide for every situation, and this situation always bugs me. Here are some situations for flop play w/bottom two.

Hero has Jh9c.
4-5 Callers in a full ring.

#1: Flop= Jc 9h Kd
a. Hero as UTG?
b. Hero in middle facing a R?
c. Hero as button facing a R w/2 callers?

#2: Flop = Jc 9d Kd
a. Hero as UTG?
b. Hero in mid facing a R?
c. Hero as button facing a R w/2 callers?


#2a is what kills me on what to do. I'm always terrified to give a flush draw that free card, but they usually just call my bet cause of the odds.

Thanks guys
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-06-2006, 09:46 PM #2 (permalink)  
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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point
 How about fold J9o preflop in every situation?

Bottom two pair must be paid aggressively on every street as you can always get counterfeited. Folding them, is usually a bad play.


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roymunson451
Old 02-06-2006, 10:16 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I was under the impression that w/4-5 callers and no R, J9 would have good equity preflop. Is that always true?
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roymunson451
Old 02-06-2006, 10:17 PM #4 (permalink)  
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But back to my original reason for posting...I'm just asking for sake of argument how to play bottom two pair, whatever it may be doesn't matter. I just picked J9 .
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Old 02-06-2006, 11:45 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I usually play it aggresively and take a step back to consider if i get played back at. likewise if the board pairs unfavourably (pairing the 9 would obviously be g00t)
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Demiparadigm
Old 02-07-2006, 12:49 AM #6 (permalink)  
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preflop -J9o is pretty much a trash hand rarely worth playing from any position with any number of callers. If it is suited, I will usually see a flop from late position in a multiway pot, and I will open-raise if folded to me in the CO or button, but I am still tossing it in the muck from up front.

Now, to give you an idea of how to play bottom 2 pair; bottom 2 pair in Holdem has almost exactly the same "worth" as pocket AA on the flop. You are beating all the same hands, and losing to all the same hands (with the obvious exception that bottom 2 beats AA, and a few minor differences in redraws that I won't list)
It is important to play both these hands strongly on the flop almost always, regarless of the flop texture. You want to push out the hands that may beat you, or at least charge them to draw.
There is a single exception that comes to mind though: If you have a hand that wants protection like an overpair or 2 pair, but you are in late position with a draw heavy board, and there is a bet from early position with multiple callers, it may be better to wait until the turn to raise if a blank falls, because turn action may force you to drop your hand if one of the draws comes in. Even this is not a "usually" though, just "sometimes," and depends on how much your equity will change from one street to the next based on what falls on the turn.
For example be more inclined to raise the flop from late position with AA than TT as an overpair, be more inclined to raise with 2 pair than you would with AA. Often your equity is simply too high to not raise, even if there are a lot of cards that may hurt you on the turn. You will always be betting and raising from early position, unless you think you can get in a check raise that will force the field to call multiple bets.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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roymunson451
Old 02-08-2006, 05:53 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Thanks Demi for your analysis. Bottom Two pair always has been hard to play, especially if another over card hits on the river.
What do you recommend when another over hits on the river that doesn't complete a draw, check or bet it (if you bet on the turn and flop, and was called)?
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Demiparadigm
Old 02-09-2006, 01:20 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Easy bet. The only thing that would make me check is if I had bottom 2 pair and the top card paired, in which case I may even fold, since my 2 pair has been counterfeited and now I have middle pair no kicker.

Again if you are betting AA on an undercard flop the whole way and a higher card than the board comes out on the river that doesn't complete a draw, why would you have any reason to not bet again?
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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