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bothersome big blind fold...

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hazelblue

09-10-2004, 11:54 AM Post subject: bothersome big blind fold...

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 76

I was playing at the B&M a couple of nights ago ($3/6 limit with $120).

I was the big blind and I got A4s (spades). The table was calling until the small blind raised. I ended up folding my hand because I thought any pair would've dominated mine.
The flop comes up with two spades, and I would've made my nut flush on the turn.

The guy who raised me was a tight player (but didn't win the pot).

The main question is...should I have called his raise to see the flop on A4s? I would have if I had ATs and higher...

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DrNoChance

09-10-2004, 12:44 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 411

I don't know much about limit, so I'll be curious to see what the others say. I'm going to venture a guess as to what the resident limit masters will say though....

A4s has basically no top pair value, as you know. It's value is strictly from nut flush/bicycle str8/2 pair. TJ Cloutier hates the weak suited aces. It's probably not a bad fold unless you think a ton of the limpers were going to call the raise...in which case you probably should call since you are getting great odds on your money. Now let's hear what the experts say...

hazelblue

09-10-2004, 01:49 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 76

That's why I folded it. I felt even if I flopped an ace, the kicker sucked. And the making the flush, while a possibility, didn't feel right.

It was my first hand from the big blind, so I didn't exactly get much of a read from the table.

Toasty

09-10-2004, 02:17 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

I call this every single time in a blink. I'd call if everyone folded and the SB raised.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

scgolfer

09-10-2004, 02:46 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 629

I ditto Toasty's play. I definitely call it since the table was calling before the raise. You probably fold on the flop if an ace comes with no spades, though, depending on the action.

Holy crap I cant play against Yoda!!

DrNoChance

09-10-2004, 03:42 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 411

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

I call this every single time in a blink. I'd call if everyone folded and the SB raised.

Ok, then...new hypothetical situation. You're on the button, it's folded to the CO and he raises. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't cold call 2xBB with this hand. Am I right?

I have a poor sense of the strength of ace small suited in limit play. It seems pretty weak to me, although hitting your flush when somebody else hits the non-nut flush = $$.

Can anybody give a rough % chance of ace small suited making a bicycle/2 pr/flush if all 5 cards are seen? Or % chance of flopping bicycle str8/2 pr/flush draw?

jmrogers7

09-10-2004, 03:45 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 1,112

In that case I fold A4s everytime. Senseless to call 2 bets cold with the likelyhood that only u, the CO and maybe the BB will be in the hand.

"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun

hazelblue

09-10-2004, 04:11 PM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 76

Cold calling 2xBB on an A4s? That's for gamblers.
I wouldn't have done it.

It was a hard hand for me to play in that situation.
Would I fold to a raise by the small blind if that came up again?
I guess it would depend on the table and situation. Something I didn't have the luxury of reading when I posted the big blind.

Thanks for your advice ( :

09-10-2004, 07:53 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Fnord

09-10-2004, 08:09 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

I call this every single time in a blink. I'd call if everyone folded and the SB raised.

3-bet unless the SB really tight/passive. Don't make a play at my blind unless you got the $%*& goods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

09-10-2004, 08:11 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by poker_femme

Cold calling 2xBB on an A4s? That's for gamblers.
I wouldn't have done it.

It's not a cold call, it's discounted 1SB because you're in the blinds. I only think of folding this if it would put me heads-up with a tight raiser. Otherwise, it's a no-brainer. Particularly with players that will pay off my draw like a slot machine.

In this case, if the SB flashes me KK, I still call. If he flashes AK, I think about it, then call. I would only fold if he flashed me AA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

09-10-2004, 08:12 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

flush chasing kills :P

Not in limit against bad players. A flush draw is a perfect hand to play against them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

09-10-2004, 08:14 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

Ok, then...new hypothetical situation. You're on the button, it's folded to the CO and he raises. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't cold call 2xBB with this hand. Am I right?

Cold calling would be HORRIBLE. 3-bet or fold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Toasty

09-10-2004, 08:59 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

Ok, then...new hypothetical situation. You're on the button, it's folded to the CO and he raises. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't cold call 2xBB with this hand. Am I right?

You are dead right, no call this, maybe a 3bet though

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

Fnord

09-11-2004, 04:45 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Flush draw + bad players = bling bling bling

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with 4

, A

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Fnord calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J

, Q

, 3

(5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Fnord raises, Button folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 8

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Fnord checks.

River: (6.75 BB) 7

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Fnord folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Qs 4d (one pair, queens).
UTG+2 has Ad Jh (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 8.75 BB.

Pre-flop on this one is *very* table dependent (and I was a little tilty)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with J

, 8

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Fnord calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q

, 2

, K

(6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Fnord calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K

(5 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Fnord calls, Button calls, SB folds.

River: (9.50 BB) A

(4 players)
MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Fnord raises, Button calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Results in white below:
MP1 has 9h Ad (two pair, aces and kings).
MP2 has Jd Ks (three of a kind, kings).
Fnord has Jh 8h (flush, ace high).
Button has Kc 3s (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Fnord wins 17.50 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Krapp

09-15-2004, 06:45 PM

#16 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 313

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

Can anybody give a rough % chance of ace small suited making a bicycle/2 pr/flush if all 5 cards are seen? Or % chance of flopping bicycle str8/2 pr/flush draw?

I believe its 4-6% to make your flush w/ all 5-cards. I am also thinking its 1-to-8 to make a flush draw on the flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker_femme

I was the big blind and I got A4s (spades). The table was calling until the small blind raised. I ended up folding my hand because I thought any pair would've dominated mine.
The flop comes up with two spades, and I would've made my nut flush on the turn.

If your assuming everyone else (or at least 3+ opps) will call behind you, its probably good to call. You can treat the hand like small connected suitors and play if the flop is friendly. I dont think your missing much if you fold the hand. A4s it not a good early hand. I am thinking the fold is ok b/c your at risk of someone re-raising and have most of the other opps fold out. With this scenario, you have 3-way play with a double-raised pot and your first to act.

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