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Blind Defending

  
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-25-2005, 10:15 PM     Post subject: Blind Defending #1 (permalink)  
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Same as stealing but sometimes turn what you know around and use it against your opponents.

1) The easiest and most common ever:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, A.
8 folds, SB raises, BB 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5, 8, K (2 players)
SB checks, BB bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 3.50 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. BB wins 3.50 BB.


2) Second Obvious and quite possibly overused:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, 7.
1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) T, Q, 2 (2 players)
SB checks, Button bets, SB raises, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3 (2 players)
SB bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. SB wins 5.50 BB.


3) Same play but now its turned around, no check raise possible:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, Q.
8 folds,SB raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4.66 SB) 6, 9, J (2 players)
SB bets, BB raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4.33 BB) J (2 players)
SB checks, BB bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 5.33 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. BB wins 5.33 BB.


4) And a defense to the common play at 2+2 after limping in the SB:

Party Poker (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 6.
8 folds. SB limps. Hero Checks.

Flop: (2 sb) T, 2, 5 (2 players) SB bets, BB raises , SB Folds

Final Pot: 5 SB

Results in white below:
No showdown.


If anyone has anything to add that would be great. I just think this stuff needs to be written down so we can study it and use it.


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Nehmer
Old 07-25-2005, 10:49 PM     Post subject: Re: Blind Defending #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
2) Second Obvious and quite possibly overused:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, 7.
1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) T, Q, 2 (2 players)
SB checks, Button bets, SB raises, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3 (2 players)
SB bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. SB wins 5.50 BB.
I don't understand this play at all. First you call a raise from SB with a hand that is pretty bad and then raise a flop that completely missed you and that even if it missed your opponent is likely to have given him at least some sort of draw to call your raise with. Maybe I'm just used to being too tight from SB now that I play mostly 3/6 and 5/10 each of which have lower than usual SBs. I usually treat calling a raise from SB almost the same as cold calling though where if I am gonna play, I am gonna reraise instead of calling.

Here is another very common blind defense play...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, J.
8 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 2, 8, T (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 5 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB folds.

Final Pot: 6 BB
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-25-2005, 11:03 PM     Post subject: Re: Blind Defending #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nehmer
I don't understand this play at all. First you call a raise from SB with a hand that is pretty bad and then raise a flop that completely missed you and that even if it missed your opponent is likely to have given him at least some sort of draw to call your raise with. Maybe I'm just used to being too tight from SB now that I play mostly 3/6 and 5/10 each of which have lower than usual SBs. I usually treat calling a raise from SB almost the same as cold calling though where if I am gonna play, I am gonna reraise instead of calling.
First, consider this is a 2/3 blind structure and not the 1/3 from 3/6. Therefore the button is raising $30 to win $25 and only has to win a small % of time to actually be profitable in doing so. Secondly, it really doesn't matter what you hold in this circumstance as it is a preset 'play.' The board could be anything and you can hold any two cards and this will work against a common blind stealer. After you use some selective consideration on when to use it it becomes a killer play.

Even at a 2/5 Blind structure such as Party's 5/10 game, its still profitable enough to use it. 1/3 you would have to tighten up a little bit but 1/2 is nearly the same.

And, A7o isnt that bad a hand against a blind steal...


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Nehmer
Old 07-25-2005, 11:06 PM     Post subject: Re: Blind Defending #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nehmer
I don't understand this play at all. First you call a raise from SB with a hand that is pretty bad and then raise a flop that completely missed you and that even if it missed your opponent is likely to have given him at least some sort of draw to call your raise with. Maybe I'm just used to being too tight from SB now that I play mostly 3/6 and 5/10 each of which have lower than usual SBs. I usually treat calling a raise from SB almost the same as cold calling though where if I am gonna play, I am gonna reraise instead of calling.
First, consider this is a 2/3 blind structure and not the 1/3 from 3/6. Therefore the button is raising $30 to win $25 and only has to win a small % of time to actually be profitable in doing so. Secondly, it really doesn't matter what you hold in this circumstance as it is a preset 'play.' The board could be anything and you can hold any two cards and this will work against a common blind stealer. After you use some selective consideration on when to use it it becomes a killer play.

Even at a 2/5 Blind structure such as Party's 5/10 game, its still profitable enough to use it. 1/3 you would have to tighten up a little bit but 1/2 is nearly the same.

And, A7o isnt that bad a hand against a blind steal...
I was a little harsh on my wording saying A7o was a bad hand, but I think it's just the idea of having preset plays to begin with that I don't like. I'm never going to use that play with 25o, because I don't think it could be profitable in the long run and I wouldn't ever use it with a hand like A7o, because if the button is an aggressive stealer(most people), I'm going to 3-bet him and if the button is a tight stealer, I'm going to fold it.
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Trikflow77
Old 07-25-2005, 11:17 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I like to mix it up between 3 betting preflop and other times using my position to raise the flop when Im in the big blind. When out of position the check raise works well when followed with a turn lead.
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Fnord
Old 07-26-2005, 12:43 AM #6 (permalink)  
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I'm a firm believer in 3-bet or fold most of the time when defending the SB. You really want to put pressure on the BB to get out of the hand.
 
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JJDylan
Old 07-26-2005, 05:52 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Ok, ive used just about every one of those defense plays...but my problem is...when do you give your opponent credit for a hand and give up? Say in #2... you check/raise the flop and bet out the turn...what happens if a) your opponent calls the turn bet...do you give up on the river? or fire again? Or say you get 3-bet after your check raise?

Is this stuff read dependent based on how agressive the opponent is? Or do you say, "if he calls me on the turn i'll give it up"
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-26-2005, 08:20 AM #8 (permalink)  
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most of the answers to your questions are yes.

If you get 3 bet most likely you are beat and should give it up. If you get called then give it up. You'll know on the flop whether your checkraise will work. A lot of times he'll take a long time calling the check raise if he'll fold the turn. If he calls fast he'll probably call the turn too. Practice makes perfect and reads are great.


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ChezJ
Old 07-26-2005, 03:45 PM #9 (permalink)  
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in his book KILLER POKER, john vorhaus included one blind defense play that is like a nuclear bomb against thinking players.

button raises, SB folds, Hero(BB) calls.

flop is low/coordinated.

Hero checks, button bets, Hero calls.

turn is low/coordinated (e.g. puts a pair on the board, or a 3 flush)

Hero checks, button bets, Hero check-raises, button folds.

a check-raise on the turn is almost never a bluff, and the thinking player knows it. the check-raise screams "i've got a monster hand and i just trapped you." at any rate, if he's on a steal with an unimproved hand, he can't continue for one big bet.

WARNINGS: USE SPARINGLY. people catch on fast. won't work on calling stations. this technique works best when there is some credible threat on the board. if you flop an ace or king, the stealer might now have a legitimate hand, so abandon ship.

ChezJ
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TylerK
Old 07-26-2005, 07:39 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Thinking players? I don't WANNA play against them.

See sig.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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ChezJ
Old 07-26-2005, 07:55 PM #11 (permalink)  
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thinking players play bigger games and bigger games offer bigger rewards.
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outphase
Old 07-26-2005, 08:03 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Here's a favorite of mine:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=14640
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
 
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chardrian
Old 07-26-2005, 08:24 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
Thinking players? I don't WANNA play against them.

See sig.
In general I agree - but Chez does make a point. The only time a bluff/semi-bluff on the turn works is against a thinking player.
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