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BennyLaRue
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06-25-2009, 02:28 PM
Post subject: bjaust's Stud Hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Am I imagining things or did bjaust post a very interesting straight against a potentially scary board hand this morning?
Please put it back up, if you don't mind. It was a great one to discuss.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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I have not seen this post, and I have no record of anyone removing a post
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I deleted it myself, I thought about it after I played and at micro level I thought it was really basic and I was seeing monsters.
It was .50/1 Stud Hi (lowest on Party) family pot which checked through to 6th street (hope I use the right terms but you'll work it out).
I have something like 6 4 [5 2 A 3] and a player ahead of me bets with something like [Q J 4 T] showing (obviously cant remember suits but I didnt have any FDs and he didnt have any obvious ones). I decided to just flat because I thought with a 4 straight on board it would be really obvious what I had if I raised, and was worried I only get action if the bettor had a better straight. On review I think (especially at this level) I get called if he has a 9 or K and probably an A, maybe an 8.
As played another player behind me also calls showing something like [A K 3 K].
On 7th street, the AKK player leads out. With two players having possible straights this had me worried about monsters under the bed. Did he have 2 pair and boat up? I got cautious and just flatted, but wondered if I was too scared and should have raised?
Probably noting how many other Aces and Ks I knew about would help the decision?
Anyway, I quite enjoyed it as a change, but obviously predictably played like a fish. They run both Stud Hi and Hi Lo (which I assume is the Stud 8 link you have TLR?). If I choose to spend some time learning should I stick to one or the other, or do they play similar enough to learn both?
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Just playing to improve.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I think if this was against semi-competent opponents its probably a very interesting hand, but at this table I've seen people call down with hands that dont even beat whats showing on the board and any pair is the nuts in their minds.
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Just playing to improve.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Hi
Hard to comment about this hand, but in a family pot I would probably raise 6th, in the lower levels you will be amazed how many times you will be called by straight draws, flush draws and 2 pair. If you get called and someone leads on 7th I would flat call
Stud hi/lo and stud 8 are the same. Technically speaking stud hi/lo means split pot with no low qualifier and stud 8 means stud hi lo 8 or better low qualifer, but I dont know of any place that runs stud hi/lo with no qualifier, so in most time both stud hi/lo and stud 8 are abbrivations for stud hi/lo with 8 qualifer.
Regarding stud hi only and stud hi lo, they are very different, dont be confused by the fact that game mechnics are similar. Both starting hands and game play is totally different, I would suggest focusing on one.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
I deleted it myself, I thought about it after I played and at micro level I thought it was really basic and I was seeing monsters.
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Oh, good, I'm not losing my mind and seeing things. Stud hands are great for discussion because there are so many places the evidence comes from.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
I have something like 6 4 [5 2 A 3] and a player ahead of me bets with something like [Q J 4 T] showing (obviously cant remember suits but I didnt have any FDs and he didnt have any obvious ones). I decided to just flat because I thought with a 4 straight on board it would be really obvious what I had if I raised, and was worried I only get action if the bettor had a better straight. On review I think (especially at this level) I get called if he has a 9 or K and probably an A, maybe an 8.
As played another player behind me also calls showing something like [A K 3 K].
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As far as the "obvious" comment is concerned, raising your straight here is right for a couple of reasons:
1) You'll often get called down in Stud repping a big hand (excepting maybe a high four flush with your up-cards) because people just don't believe you. You'd think that having 4 cards visible would be a deterrent comparing to repping a hand in flop games but it's often quite the opposite at low stakes, that players see your board and think you are just trying to turn the implied strength of it into a bluff.
2) With a player(s?) still to act, your raise is your best chance of defending a somewhat vulnerable hand against marginal draws looking to score a cheap river, ie. You don't want a low two pair getting a chance to fill up on the cheap or to give a gutshot a chance at 1 of the 4 cards he needs. It's tough to say without a hand history, but Stud pots by 6th are often big enough that it's almost never wrong for marginal draws to call ONE bb on 6th if they are closing the action and think making their hand will make them best. If you make it TWO bets in that same situation it can become a mistake for opps behind you to call. They might still call, but at least you did what you could to defend and heads-up showdowns always make for really easy 7th street decisions.
You're opening yourself up to get reraised by the original bettor, sure, but let's think about what he has. We're ruling out a flush. With a [Q J 4 T] board, he would have had to have AK, K9 or 98 in the hole to hit his straight on 6th. AK is highly unlikely. For one thing, two Aces and two Kings are already visible (maybe more?) so the odds are against it (and I'll suggest not being scared of K9 for the same reason). As well, my own personal philosophy in many Limit games is that the Aces are spread out in family pots with bad players, leading to all the pre-flop calls in the first place. Lastly, thinking back to 3rd street play, AKQ might have been a raise depending on the betting order and up cards, so you're thinking back to that and using it for evidence. We're really only scared of 98 and not a range of hands then, and I'll pay off that small percentage of hands that beat me. Two pair and strong draws are probably betting out on 6th too, so that's what I'll put him on and call a single raise back to me.
Generally, if you see 7th, you're at least calling with most made hands that have a chance to win. Almost every Stud pot is big enough by then to justify doing so. I'm not clear on the betting order on this street from your history but will say that Kings-up is a more likely holding here for the donk bettor than a Full House, unless you think he had Kings-up before this street and didn't bet with it. Still, refer to my general comment from the beginning of this paragraph and call.
Stud-Hi is a high variance game due to the number of betting rounds. You're going to pay stupid people off on 7th more than you'd like but it's necessary as you'll find yourself getting shipped the pot with marginal holdings way more often than you thought possible.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
If I choose to spend some time learning should I stick to one or the other, or do they play similar enough to learn both?
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I only play Stud/8 as part of HORSE or 8-game so take this with a grain of salt. The need to evaluate boards and the betting philosophies between the two games are generally the same (betting and raising as a means of getting heads up, value betting being critical) but they are two very different animals. Pre-flop with Stud/8, you're looking for good scoop hands or excellent hi-only hands (rolled up trips, AA, high straight flush draws, a few other hands), so you'll find yourself playing extremely nitty or else getting sucked out for half the pot a lot of the time. And if you fall into that trap in any hi/lo game, the rake just kills you.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Thanks for comments Benny, really useful analysis.
I concur so far with the bit about people paying you off at micros. I feel really nitty in these games, but have finished up every one because I'm getting away cheap with bad hands and raking big pots with big hands.
Might just be the times I feel like playing, but so far on Party I've only seen the micros running. Even 2/4 if theres anyoen there it'll just be 1 or 2, and not real sure I want to play short handed.
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Just playing to improve.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I would just raise 6th street. People at this level often aren't even looking at your board when they bet, and they'll still usually bet two pair or trips even if you have a 4-straight showing. (Which isn't really a bad play.) It also looks like his straight cards are dead. On the river I think it's fine to call multiway and hope for overcalls. If you were closing the action it's closer to a raise. It depends on how fishy / passive these guys are.
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