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drmcboy
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12-08-2010, 04:48 AM
Post subject: Big hand, kinda good flop, 200 deep
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#1 (permalink)
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DrButtInski
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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He is 75/50 over like 8 hands, but we were short handed (this is a FR table that is just starting up) so I dunno if it means anything.
Thoughts on flop? turn plan? He has 225 back or so.
Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
Button ($395.30)
Hero (SB) ($450.35)
BB ($400)
UTG ($293.45)
MP ($150.50)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A , J , 8, A
2 folds, Button bets $6, Hero raises to $20, BB calls $18, Button calls $14
Flop: ($61.50) 10, Q , 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $54, 1 fold, Button raises to $150, Hero calls $96
Turn: ($361.50) 8 (2 players)
Hero?
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davis13
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 24
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c/c flop if hes very aggressive or b/c half pot is a ton better than this bet size, planning on c/raing on good turns or if his bet size looks weak. Postflop reads would nice as played.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
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nothing remarkable has happened in those 8 hands.
what do you think is a good turn?
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davis13
c/c flop if hes very aggressive or b/c half pot is a ton better than this bet size, planning on c/raing on good turns or if his bet size looks weak. Postflop reads would nice as played.
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Do you play much omaha? This sounds like HE reasoning as 1/2 potting puts you in a super gross spot unless they both fold.
After we call flop I'd think we need an A, K, 9, 8, maybe Q or T and possible a J, also and/or or
If we shove here I doubt he's calling with QT, maybe with J9. I'd c/c if anything because if he does have a straight he's not going to catchup on the river if he checks behind.
Note: I have no idea how 200NL players play.
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fulksy
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Posts: 1,018
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just started really trying to learn PLO so no real clue, but i like c/c the turn, as i don't think to much your beating call, but looks like a decent card to bet for him as it doesn't really complete anything and he's already repping a decent hand. I would probablt b/f flop, is this terrible? seems even most good turn cards aren't great.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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we have 32% equity vs QQ** & J9** so b/f doesn't seem like a good line.
for the c/c turn camp what is your plan on river?
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fulksy
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Full House
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Location: Edmonton,Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
we have 32% equity vs QQ** & J9** so b/f doesn't seem like a good line.
for the c/c turn camp what is your plan on river?
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Do we need 36% Equity vs his entire range?
tough spot for me on river, but it would be a tough spot for me if i bet turn as well which is why i b/f flop which is obv way wrong thinking.
few thoughts if its a good card, (8,A,K,J) shoving. those cards look like good bluffing cards so might get a mediocre call from J9 etc, obv any boats calling.
blank, i guess if we c/c turn, c/c river.
Q 10 c/f
again really raw at PLO, so probably way way off.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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I'm not sure I understand the question. I was presenting the worst cases to show that even there it is pretty close depending on what we think our implied/reverse odds are. to compare we have 45% vs QJJT.
a J is not a good card (maybe you mean a good card to bluff?), but don't ignore that we have dual back door nfds so there are many more turns that can get us to the river.
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fulksy
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Full House
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was just wondering what equity we need here against his range to call his raise. Is it 36%? yea against his entire range we have more then this, so i see why you have to call especially with backdoor draws. (is their a program like Pokerstove for omaha) my biggest problem in PLO is being able to put players on accurate ranges, and knowing the equity we have against those ranges.
how much do you weigh reverse implied odds with heart and spade on turn.
on flop would 2 pair with no redraw ever raise? or is his raise weighted more to 2 pair with redraw, sets, straights? how often (if ever)is this a bluff?
so given my c/c line on turn, is shoving A,K,8. and c/c blanks on river a decent line IYO.
this is kinda all over the place, sorry about all the questions just trying to figure out my own line of thinking.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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when entering ranges I think it's better for HE as well, and is your best option for PLO.
Since it is a 3 bet pot I would for sure raise with any two pair vs a random. It is hard for a two pair hand not to have re draws on this board. I would still be raising say QT77 assuming I had played the hand to this point begin with.
I have gotten confused about the line we are talking about I guess. There is less than one PSB left so we're all in if we c/c turn.
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fulksy
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Full House
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thanks.
yea i guess any two pair here, in a 3 bet pot would most likely have a draw as well.
i think i misread hand a bit i still like c/c on turn, as most 2 pair that are calling a shove are betting anyways and at least c/c gives him a chance to bluff. if it goes check/check i think i c/c river as well unless Q or T comes off.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
I have gotten confused about the line we are talking about I guess. There is less than one PSB left so we're all in if we c/c turn.
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I'm not sure if I realized this the first time around. I think I'd fold, unless I'd seen something from villain post that makes me think he's hyper agro, then I payoff and facepalm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulksy
i think i misread hand a bit i still like c/c on turn, as most 2 pair that are calling a shove are betting anyways
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I disagree here. Any moderately aware player realizes QT is crap here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fulksy
and at least c/c gives him a chance to bluff.
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true, but unless villain is a spaz he's not bluffing enough for us to be good.
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If turn goes check, check, I'm still lost on river and probably c/f unless I gin.
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fulksy
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Posts: 1,018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
I'm not sure if I realized this the first time around. I think I'd fold, unless I'd seen something from villain post that makes me think he's hyper agro, then I payoff and facepalm.
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you mean fold flop right? if your c/f an 8 on the turn, then i assume you think we should fold flop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
I disagree here. Any moderately aware player realizes QT is crap here.
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but if you make it to the turn and you think he won't call with Q10 (will generally have a draw as well.), then you can't bet if nothing worse is going to call, unless your turning your trips into a bluff. so you still need to check, and again if your c/f when an 8 hits you need to fold to the flop raise??
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
true, but unless villain is a spaz he's not bluffing enough for us to be good.
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If turn goes check, check, I'm still lost on river and probably c/f unless I gin.
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well it would most likely be a semibluff so i still think he can do it a fair amount. but again if it goes check check and a blank hits the river we can't fold after calling flop raise, can we?
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
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We can still call the flop, we're not calling just to hit the 8 of clubs, and just because we have equity to continue doesn't mean we always have to continue. Iza funny game.
I would assume after the 8 is that they slow down with a straight and QT so we can realize our equity (or something like that). If you knew they'd bet/bet/bet (i.e. not an unknown player) then we would be more likely to call
There is a nifty graph feature via the link, this spot makes a neat graph
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So if villain had JT9rag we have 30% equity on 45% of the turns, and we can assume villain won't always double barrel (I think)
Thinking too much about how villains flop raise, turn bluff range and our perceived range (AA!!) affects our play makes my head assplode, because he should have a check behind range on the turn.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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betting this flop seems unnecessary to me.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
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and your line is
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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check call or check raise depending on which villain bets
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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davis13
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One Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 24
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At Swiddigy, no I actually hate holdem but used to play it. I said a half pot sizing because it gives you more room to manure the turn and river a lot better, and if both decided to get it in, you can probably fold in that situation, where as betting close to pot with 100bb stacks or in this case 200bb stacks you really skew your range. I just feel that betting this texture with a balanced range with a smaller bet size is a lot better than pretty much mashing pot OOP, it allows you give your range a ton more width and triple barreling this texture is usually printing money against most players that have a fold button.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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When I have a big hand with a lot of back door equity, I usually take a check call sometimes check raise line on the flop with a balanced 3 bet range that already has villain smashed sometimes. I learned that on bluefirepoker LOL.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
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what is the plan after we check/call flop?
if you c/r, are you hoping worse calls or better folds?
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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+1 for c/c flop with a plan to c/c good turns. Needs to be way more behind for c/r imo.
As played I'd c/f this turn.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
Needs to be way more behind for c/r imo.
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I agree with C/R a polarized flop range. I am only now starting to get some sea legs in the old omahaha.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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what are good turns? It seems very unlikely to me he'll ever bet a worse hand if an A or K comes. I can see c/c 8s or 9s - are we giving up to river action on those? c/c if we make the NFD makes sense.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
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I'd c/c flop, no way in hell I'm folding with NG + 2 BDFDs
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I agree with C/R a polarized flop range. I am only now starting to get some sea legs in the old omahaha.
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Nice to see you posting again Rondavu. I hope you are back to stay.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
what are good turns? It seems very unlikely to me he'll ever bet a worse hand if an A or K comes. I can see c/c 8s or 9s - are we giving up to river action on those? c/c if we make the NFD makes sense.
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I'd lead Kx, c/f Ax/Tx/Qx/8x, c/c if we make the NFD. Also leading 9s/9h and barreling blank rivers could be a cool play.
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