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Shark Bait

08-05-2006, 04:42 AM Post subject: Betting/raising draws

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

I don't get a chance to do this too much, but is my cap on the flop good considering it's 4 players? What if it's 3 players? Call the raise on the turn because it's only 3 players, or do I keep going?

obviously the draw didn't come and I don't care about that. Just wondering how much I should bet at it when I'm drawing to the nuts.

Sorry...basic concept, I'm just a little rusty. I understand the equity edge, 25% of my money in the pot, but I will win more than 25% of the time, I just don't know what to assume my chances of winning are. What is it...36% on the flop? what about on the turn?

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, A

.
3 folds, MP2 raises, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6

, 3

, 4

(4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 3-bets, Button calls, Hero caps, BB calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 9

(4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (19 BB) 6

(3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Button folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 20 BB

Also, suppose I'm last to act in a hand like this and it's checked me on the turn. If I believe I'll get 3 calls do i bet, or do I just want the free card. I think I need to do more reading, I feel like I should know this stuff a little better.

SSH, TOP, HPFAP?

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euphoricism

08-05-2006, 05:24 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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If you think hitting an A or K will win you the pot, then the cap is fine. If not, then I probably just call the flop raises and look for a club. In this instance, they're playing too fast and hard for me to like my overcards.

Quote:

Also, suppose I'm last to act in a hand like this and it's checked me on the turn. If I believe I'll get 3 calls do i bet, or do I just want the free card. I think I need to do more reading, I feel like I should know this stuff a little better. SSH, TOP, HPFAP?

Well, the hand would play a lot differently in that case, and we'd assign different hand ranges to our opponents. Weaker ones too. If you were not first to act, and they bet, raised, and you capped last to act, then they checked it to you on the turn I'd probably take the free card for fear of a c/r. If we were *gaurenteed* that we wouldn't be checkraised -- well, that would mean that our A or K could possibly be good. So a bet for value could be alright.

Tricky situation. Playing it passively isn't a bad idea.

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bigspenda73

08-05-2006, 05:33 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Well since you gave me some good advice on my post I'll try to give you some here.

Lets look at the general holdings you can be up against here. You have the flush draw, looks like you may not be the only one. There SHOULD be one overpair in the hand plus someone could hold A5. Looks like everyone is gonna see a turn here.
Therefore, I like the flop cap b/c the entire table has shown interest in seeing the turn and you have about 35% equity in this pot. Considering 1 player could have a set you have at least 1/3 of a stake in this pot. So the cap is a good exploit of your edge on this flop.

However, if it were 3 players I would just smooth call and hope for overcalls. It would be much better to exploit any edge you have on the turn even if it is a small one. With three players a raise does not do much for you, in fact it could hurt you in the long run if one player consistenly folds.
The leadout on the turn is a bit of a poor play IMO. You run a large risk of someone iso-raising you and knocking out the other players. If the player to your left raises here you can lose much of your edge. On top of this I do not think a lead at this board will immediately win you this pot. You are up against at least one made hand, so you can check/call here and try to make your hand.

In summation, yes the flop cap is a good play. You have about 35% equity after this flop, maybe more if no one holds a set, a straight, or AA/KK. You could even be ahead. You could be up against A5, a flush draw, and something like 88. You would actually hold a large equity then.

Your last quesiton about it being checked to you. I would bet then, I wouldnt believe that AA or KK would check to you here so your equity is quite large, you could be looking at discounted outs are 13. I'll call the overcards four outs total b/c you're bound to be up against other players holding a weaker ace or king. With 13 outs your percentage win is nearly 30% with one card to come. If you know you will get 3 callers, then the bet is the right play. If you think you may be check/raised here I wouldn't do it.

Hope I confused you enough...

midas06

08-05-2006, 06:41 AM

#4 (permalink)

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4 way this is a value cap since you have enough equity to do so

euphoricism

08-05-2006, 06:48 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

4 way this is a value cap since you have enough equity to do so

Aren't we ignoring that our flop action is going to feed into our turn and river action. If all four players were now, through some silly house rules, unable to bet on the turn or river, then yes, cap for value. But your cap is more expensive than it looks to be, due to the fact that we then essentially have to lead the turn. And then get raised.

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euphoricism

08-05-2006, 06:52 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

The leadout on the turn is a bit of a poor play IMO. You run a large risk of someone iso-raising you and knocking out the other players. If the player to your left raises here you can lose much of your edge. On top of this I do not think a lead at this board will immediately win you this pot. You are up against at least one made hand, so you can check/call here and try to make your hand.

In summation, yes the flop cap is a good play.

So you're planning to cap the flop, and then check the turn UTG?

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bigspenda73

08-05-2006, 07:09 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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It we cap then check, yea we're obviously on a draw.

So, eupho is this a hand you play more passively b/c of your position here?

I only cap the flop b/c if you just smooth call u check/call the turn and then lead at the river if you connect? Well then every1 and their grandmother knows you've made your draw. By capping here I think you disguise your hand a little more. And then yes, in doing so I guess a turn lead would work, and if you were fortunate to connect on the river then you could lead and not represent the flush.

So, let me correct my first post, cap the flop, lead then turn. That is what I would do.
I think this does two things for you:
1. Obviously make a larger pot
2. Not let the table put you on the flush draw. If you connect and were lucky enough to be up against a set or straight you could get raised on the end with the nuts, wouldn't that be nice.

But eupho, you're right, I forgot about the fundamental law of poker: POSITION.

euphoricism

08-05-2006, 07:36 AM

#8 (permalink)

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I dont think at this point disguising our hand has absolutely any value. They like their hand, and they aren't going anywhere.

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euphoricism

08-05-2006, 07:48 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

So, let me correct my first post, cap the flop, lead then turn. That is what I would do.
I think this does two things for you:
1. Obviously make a larger pot
2. Not let the table put you on the flush draw. If you connect and were lucky enough to be up against a set or straight you could get raised on the end with the nuts, wouldn't that be nice.

Yes, capping the flop and leading the turn will -probably- give us an extra bet on the river since we can -probably- checkraise.

But, we've already PAID that bet when we had to lead the turn and we didn't really want to. Remember, we wouldn't pay that extra bet on the turn if we didn't cap.

Lose more when you miss, win the same when you hit.

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euphoricism

08-05-2006, 07:51 AM

#10 (permalink)

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And THATS assuming villain bets the river when we check to him every time (not a huge stretch, but he will check SOMETIMES) and it also assumes villain calls the checkraise (again not a huge stretch, as people are notorious for calling river raises that they plainly shouldnt, but again sometimes he'll fold)

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midas06

08-05-2006, 03:17 PM

#11 (permalink)

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euph if you're scared of playing cards oput of o positngion, maybe LHE isn't for you bro. Gotta maximise your equity and EV in every pot amirtie? if youre scared oif playing somr ereal cards you might as well go to set capming nlhe because htats what nits do

Miffed22001

08-05-2006, 03:18 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

great content

lambchopdc

08-05-2006, 03:18 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

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Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

Midas's avatar was taken <1 hour ago obv.

euphoricism

08-05-2006, 06:52 PM

#14 (permalink)

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pnkyandthebrain

08-05-2006, 10:54 PM

#15 (permalink)

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This is essentially the opposite of your previous post, where you had AA and three diamonds flopped, with another on the turn. In this situation, you want to raise aggresivelly on the flop. The reason is you want to force those playing with weak hands out of the game. Your odds are very, very good at this point, since you have two more cards (turn/river) to catch a club, at which point you will have the nut, assuming the board does not pair. This also prevents your opponents from putting you on the flush. You risk losing all your action on the turn if you catch your flush, and then everyone sees you checked the flop and start betting once the clubs are out. You also want to build the pot early in anticipation of catching your flush, the odds of which are around 30%, which is very solid.

There is no shame in just calling on the turn if you don't catch. At this point, your opponents probably aren't going anywhere, and will make it expensive for you if you don't catch you flush on the river.

midas06

08-06-2006, 03:37 AM

#16 (permalink)

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k I was drunk but what I said still holds mr Euph

elipsesjeff

08-07-2006, 04:46 AM

#17 (permalink)

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I agree, you HAVE to cap this flop. For no other reason than for pure equity.

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euphoricism

08-07-2006, 05:10 AM

#18 (permalink)

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You really want to lead into the turn here UI when youve already been raised and re-raised?

Gonna cap again when they raise and reraise again?

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elipsesjeff

08-07-2006, 05:22 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

You really want to lead into the turn here UI when youve already been raised and re-raised?

Gonna cap again when they raise and reraise again?

Never agreed with that. I just like the flop cap. Betting the turn is well, break even at best.

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midas06

08-07-2006, 05:43 AM

#20 (permalink)

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You want at least one bet going in on the turn. The only way to ensure this is to bet it yourself. Also for deceptive purposes to ensure your draw gets paid off when it hits on 5th as well

elipsesjeff

08-07-2006, 08:57 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

You want at least one bet going in on the turn.

Actually, since you missed the turn, any money you put in there you are losing value. Try to get the river card as cheaply as possible since you have zero folding equity. But, still pump the flop.

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midas06

08-07-2006, 10:35 AM

#22 (permalink)

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but you may be buying outs as well with some fold equity on the turn. Probably not the Button or the 3 better, but the BB could be pushed out with a bet

euphoricism

08-07-2006, 10:41 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

You really want to lead into the turn here UI when youve already been raised and re-raised?

Gonna cap again when they raise and reraise again?

Never agreed with that. I just like the flop cap. Betting the turn is well, break even at best.

So youre going to cap the flop and check the turn? I mean, I guess thats theoretically sound but... certainly a strange line..

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Xanadu

08-07-2006, 03:03 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Pretty silly not to cap the flop, because it is a sure thing that you are going to make money with that play. So what if you check the turn and observant players put you on the flush draw? Isn't that better than putting 2 bets in on the turn when you miss? If you have to put in 2 on the turn when you miss, you usually lose any equity you gained on the flop. There is no reason to feel compelled to bet on the turn. Since you have shown the most aggression in the hand so far, the other players may check the turn around, to not fall for a check-raise.

Shark Bait

09-02-2006, 04:40 AM

#25 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

So here's a hand that actually worked....still ok to raise with it 3 ways?

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K

, A

.
3 folds, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, 4 folds, BB calls, Hero caps, MP2 calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) T

, 3

, 5

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.66 BB) J

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, BB calls.

River: (13.66 BB) 7

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15.66 BB

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koolmoe

09-03-2006, 04:09 AM

#26 (permalink)

Full House

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

So youre going to cap the flop and check the turn? I mean, I guess thats theoretically sound but... certainly a strange line..

It certainly depends on your opponents, but it looks like the winning hand will have to showdown. Nothing wrong with checking against an apparent monster that you will have to outdraw. Try to get a cheap river card. It should be clear that FE is close to zero, so there is little reason to lead the turn.

Sure, your draw will be obvious if it comes in, but that's just more reason to cap the flop. Get them to put money in while YOU are ahead. Then, your turn call - even if the turn is capped - will be sound (+EV). If you hit, you will probably still win a bet or two on the river because the pot is so big. If you don't win anyrhing on the river, even more reason to cap the flop.

The only downside I can see is that building a big pot may lead to a crying call on the river if an A or K hit. However, that is a much smaller error compared to the ~0.5 BB error you make by failing to cap the flop.

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