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Betting out or hoping to check raise - b&m question

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pokerlearner

07-03-2005, 10:14 PM Post subject: Betting out or hoping to check raise - b&m question

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

Hi guys,

Lately I have realised that when I raise preflop from early position (EP or blinds or UTG or utg+1) and hit the flop (TPTK or better or strong flush draw), I usually bet out every street. am I missing bets here ? also, if i make my flush on the turn, i still bet out and dont try to check raise. is that optimum play ??

I have seen and have a feeling that most players check behind at least the flop if I (preflop raiser check). I feel its a disaster for one street (especially the later 2 streets) to check behind if i was intending to check raise.

Even when I hit trips from early position, i bet out and keep betting. Some people will fold but its very usual for 2-3 people calling when i raise preflop and 2 aces show up on board (i have the another ace). Even if there is a flush draw on board, the guy with that draw is not going anywhere so why check around. i bet.

Example for the time I would try to check raise the flop is say when i am in the blinds with say Q-7o and Q hits the flop and trying to protect my hand on flop. I would check raise the flop and lead out on turn and if get raised, would fold. however, it backfires for the times when my passive opponents with Q and better kicker keep calling all the way till the river and beat me

My question is, what is the correct strategy for turn or river. Is it worth it to check to hope to trap a few people with 2 bets risking the fact that it could check all around for that turn ??

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euphoricism

07-03-2005, 10:51 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

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Its really read specific here. An EP raiser SCREAMS strength. Unless you know your opponent will bet, no reason to try for it. Bet out, they'll call anyway.

ESPECIALLY on a drawing board, you don't want to go for a checkraise. Why give the guy who flopped four to the flush the free look for his fifth?

'It depends' ;]

Edit:
Often, if you bet the flop, get called, check the turn on a safe card -- your opponent will think you missed and go for the bet to steal it. Thats a great way to get a check raise in, and its worth more than doing it on the flop.

poskid_1982

07-04-2005, 12:12 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Midwest

Posts: 392

The ONLY way that I am tryng for a c/r on a drawing board is if I have a fairly strong hand (TPTK, 2-pair, Set) AND I have a very aggressive player in LP. The reason being, is that, I dont want the MPs to bet but I want to make them cold call 2 bets to see the next cards with the knowledge that they are going to have to call a turn bet as well.

Otherwise a c/r is pretty much out of the question on a drawing board. gl

Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.

outphase

07-04-2005, 01:55 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

You're better off straightfoward betting it out. Many B&M players are passive enough to where a checkraise is useless. It also doesn't mean much to them. I've only checkraised once in an entire B&M session last night only because I flopped the nuts on a rainbow board. Check raising invites free draws to come and play. Be careful. Your opponents aren't fancy players like many of the rest of us.

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pokerfanatic

07-04-2005, 11:34 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

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If you got the PFR on your right shoot for the c/r, look for the likely bettor... if you need to protect your hand and player is Argo and is on your left and he is likely to raise then lead out... look for the likely bettor and how aggressive he or she is...

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elipsesjeff

07-07-2005, 03:46 AM

#6 (permalink)

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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

In most B&M rooms, standard betting applies. When more than 4 opponents see the flop then Check/Raising your TPTK is a necesity to not build the pot, but to protect your hand.

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RiverMonkey

07-07-2005, 07:00 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

The question was when to bet out versus when to go for a CR on the TURN or RIVER. The context is you've got a made hand (e.g. TPTK) that is likely best right now, but is vulnerable to draws and re-draws. In other words, we're assuming that we are NOT talking about situations where you are using the CR to build a pot/trap your opponents for extra bets.

Let's set the RIVER case aside given that how the action plays out there is strongly dictated by the action on the TURN.

First off, you have to look at the hand holistically. If you were the PFR'er, and you showed strength on the flop and you check the TURN (planning to CR) your drawing opponents are likely to take the free card given that they may smell the CR coming (this isn't as true for moronic/aggro players, but for most thinking/passive players its certainly more true). On the other hand, if you didn't show any strength on the flop and a player with position on you and a few others in the pot does, then you are better positioned to (a) pull off a CR on the TURN, and (b) get the resulting protection for your hand coming from those other players have to call two big bets cold.

In short, betting out may be your better option if the following are true (Can anyone think of any other criteria?) :

o you have a strong reason to believe a CR will fail and it will get checked around - You don't want your drawing opponents to have the opportunity to take free cards - especially if the pot is big.

o there isn't a likley TURN-bettor with postion on you and your opponents to create protection for your hand

I mention the second point above separately (even though they are both clearly related) because there is a distinct case: when you get bet into on the TURN from someone on your right. If you've got a vulnerable hand that is likely best right now this is obviuously a good scenario for you. You want to protect your hand, and this bettor has created an esxcellent situation for you. Obviously your play here is to raise and hope your opponents who are now facing two cold either make a call against the odds, or fold. Either way, you benefit.

Now for the RIVER. In my experience CR'ing the river is relatively rare compared to CRs on the flop or TURN. It's utility in this context is definitely more heavily weighted towards trapping opponents for more bets, then it is for protecting your hand. It's more of a value-betting (or more rarely a bluffing) situation. If you do manage to pull of a CR on the TURN, its going to take a very specific set of circumstances and perhaps a moronic opponent or two for you to pull off another CR on the RIVER. In fact, those stars rarely ever align to create the situation where you'll be able to pull off a RIVER CR, and derive much benefit from it.

pokerlearner

07-08-2005, 04:47 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

thanks for clarifying river. I appreciate it. For now I will play straightforward because generally without exception, if I am the preflop raiser, and bet the flop, most of the passive players check behind if checked.

exceptions are:
1) pot is too big by the turn and they want to take a stab at it.
2) aggro players. I have seen a few of them who bet their bottom pair or weak draws (only overcards) as if they have TPTK or 2 pair.

Yesterday, a Checkraise worked for me really well. I had an aggro player directly opposite to me in table. I limped in with Q10o in UTG+1 (very loose table) and flopped trip queens. check called the flop, and check raised a field of 3 calling players for an extra bet each when the aggro dude bet out (they all called when there was 2 queens showing on a rainbow uncoordinated board)

poskid_1982

07-08-2005, 04:58 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Midwest

Posts: 392

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerlearner

Beautifully played!!!

Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.

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Betting out or hoping to check raise - b&m question

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