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Bet the Turn?

  
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 10-19-2004, 12:53 AM     Post subject: Bet the Turn? #1 (permalink)  
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 ***** Hand History for Game 1074749046 *****
$0.5/$1 Hold'em - Monday, October 18, 20:48:01 EDT 2004
Table Galaxy Galore (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: chriscbr954 ( $6.5 )
Seat 2: dawnwalsh ( $7.63 )
Seat 4: Gryph_Wease ( $40.5 )
Seat 6: LLKetelaar ( $35.25 )
Seat 9: skyman01 ( $16.87 )
Seat 10: faraone ( $45.75 )
Seat 5: CodeRedRuleU ( $51 )
Seat 3: Arbor ( $13.25 )
Seat 7: lytnup ( $22.75 )
Seat 8: garrett1985 ( $1 )
lytnup posts small blind [$0.25].
garrett1985 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to CodeRedRuleU [ As Ad ]
skyman01 calls [$0.5].
faraone folds.
chriscbr954 calls [$0.5].
dawnwalsh folds.
Arbor folds.
Gryph_Wease calls [$0.5].
CodeRedRuleU raises [$1].
LLKetelaar calls [$1].
lytnup folds.
garrett1985 is all-In.
skyman01 calls [$0.5].
chriscbr954 calls [$0.5].
Gryph_Wease calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 6s, Ks ]
>You have options at Table 13051 Table!.
skyman01 bets [$0.5].
chriscbr954 calls [$0.5].
Gryph_Wease calls [$0.5].
CodeRedRuleU raises [$1].
LLKetelaar folds.
skyman01 raises [$1].
chriscbr954 folds.
Gryph_Wease folds.
CodeRedRuleU raises [$1].
skyman01 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
skyman01 checks.
CodeRedRuleU checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
skyman01 folds.
garrett1985 shows [ Kh, 8c ] two pairs, kings and tens.
CodeRedRuleU shows [ As, Ad ] a flush, ace high.
CodeRedRuleU wins $5 from side pot #1 with a flush, ace high.
CodeRedRuleU wins $5.75 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

I guess it was silly to cap the flop and not bet the turn. I was scared with that ten and I was expecting a chance on the river, plus I had the free nut flush card. In hindsight, i think I was too passive and shoulda bet.


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Fnord
Old 10-19-2004, 12:57 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I might do the same, although with the Ace high flush draw I'm more inclined to bet the turn and call a raise. Without the Ace of spades I play it the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Nehmer
Old 10-19-2004, 01:25 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I personally would always bet the turn here. Based off the betting on the flop, I would assume he was not on a flush draw. Really, the only hands I can think of that he might have where the ten on the turn might have helped(KT or TT), already had you beat and he definately wouldn't have checked the turn with.
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elipsesjeff
Old 10-19-2004, 01:50 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Really, the only hands I can think of that he might have where the ten on the turn might have helped(KT or TT), already had you beat and he definately wouldn't have checked the turn with.
Not necessarily, a lot of times people will check-raise on the turn with the nuts if they knew you were going to bet. Which, I probably would have but I was too passive. I wasn't worried about the check-raise I just don't know what happened, I realized that AA wasn't the best hand any more and I didn't want to be too aggressive.

I folded Trip 10s earlier because it gave 2 other players with inside straights (what they were doing with 9-2os to hit runner runner is beyond me). Its a tough hand to fold.


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Fnord
Old 10-19-2004, 02:24 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Not necessarily, a lot of times people will check-raise on the turn with the nuts if they knew you were going to bet. Which, I probably would have but I was too passive. I wasn't worried about the check-raise I just don't know what happened, I realized that AA wasn't the best hand any more and I didn't want to be too aggressive.
It's human nature to look for the monster under the bed when wagering at a poker table. Against bad players it's less likely they have it because they play garbage hands, have irrational bouts of aggression and have such low calling standards. In short, be more inclined to value bet here. With the flush draw on top of your 2 pair it's not even close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 10-19-2004, 02:30 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Bet/raise your hand and they will call. Both hands from this evening.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Q, A.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Fnord raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8, A, 2 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Fnord bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, Fnord 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+1 caps, MP1 folds, Fnord calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 3 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Fnord raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (17.25 BB) K (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Fnord bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has 9d Ad (one pair, aces).
Fnord has Qs As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins 19.25 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with Q, A.
Fnord raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9, J, 7 (3 players)
Fnord bets, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2 (3 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

River: (5.25 BB) 8 (3 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Results in white below:
MP2 has Kh Qd (high card, king).
Button has 5s Qs (high card, queen).
Fnord has Qc As (high card, ace).
Outcome: Fnord wins 5.25 BB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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LockLow34
Old 10-19-2004, 12:55 PM #7 (permalink)  
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You definitely have to be the turn there. If he check-raises you, he's probably got you beat or else thinks you have something like QQ or JJ. I'm with Fnord, I wouldn't put him on a flush draw from the betting on the flop. Plus if he's a solid player (which he probably isn't, having limped with K8o UTG) he wouldnt' have played a drawing hand out of position like that. And if he's NOT a solid player, then he's probably not sophisticated enough to bet out on his draw.

Bet the turn.
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LockLow34
Old 10-19-2004, 01:00 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Preflop: Fnord is UTG with Q, A.
Fnord raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.
UTG raise with AQo? Was the table that tight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Final Pot: 5.25 BB
Even if it wasn't, you were only able to take a pot with 5 bets. You took a pot with 19 bets with the AQ suited when you had position. Much more profitable to play those cards in position. You may want to reconsider your preflop play with AQ UTG.
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Nehmer
Old 10-19-2004, 03:08 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
UTG raise with AQo? Was the table that tight?
Quote:
Even if it wasn't, you were only able to take a pot with 5 bets. You took a pot with 19 bets with the AQ suited when you had position. Much more profitable to play those cards in position. You may want to reconsider your preflop play with AQ UTG.
I play mostly at 1/2 or 2/4 party poker tables and always raise preflop from any position with AQ if the pot is unraised when it gets to me. This includes raising UTG. So far through over 12000 hands, AQ is my most profitable starting hand(with a large portion of the winnings coming from late position). Now, this might just be a lucky run of cards with AQ so far, but I would guess that raising with it UTG is a good move at most low limit tables(like where Fnord was playing)
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Fnord
Old 10-19-2004, 05:20 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LockLow34
UTG raise with AQo? Was the table that tight?
1) I have a good hand
2) I don't want a multi-pot
3) Limping AQo UTG is a trick play for tight tables to trap AJ/AT/KQ. These guys will cold call often enough with that and more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LockLow34
Even if it wasn't, you were only able to take a pot with 5 bets. You took a pot with 19 bets with the AQ suited when you had position. Much more profitable to play those cards in position. You may want to reconsider your preflop play with AQ UTG.
In position or if one of them folded, I might have been able to bet the turn unimproved. Otherwise the biggest difference was that in the first hand I caught my pair. Betting the turn without a pair out of position into 2 loose/passive calling stations isn't a great idea.

Position is great, but I have to make the most out of every +EV situation I'm dealt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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