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Demiparadigm

12-20-2005, 12:42 AM Post subject: Bet/fold lines

#1 (permalink)

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Can people post some hands where they bet/folded a street? I am trying to incorporate this more into my game, as I think it is an important skill in the higher limit games, and could lead to more profit in the smaller games where I am at.
I have also successfully added some checkraise bluffs to my game... finding good spots. (anyone can checkraise bluff, making it profitable is a little harder.)
But yeah.. hands with streets where you wither bet and folded to a raise, or checkraised and folded to a 3 bet.

Here's an example theoretical hand against a good player:

Hero is dealt JJ and raises in EP.
20/10/2 villain 3 bets in MP... hero calls.

Flop is JQ7
Hero bets, villain raises, hero 3 bets, villain calls
Turn is K
Hero bets, villain raises, hero calls.
River is blank
Hero checks, villain bets, hero raises.

Same hand..
If the river is an Ace, can you bet/fold? or check/call?
When is a bet/fold line correct other than clarkmeister (which is becoming outdated)

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

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elipsesjeff

12-20-2005, 01:24 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Why would you ever fold that hand? I would 3/bet that turn and bet/call the river.

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elipsesjeff

12-20-2005, 01:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

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***** Hand History for Game 3230054770 *****
$5/$10 Texas Hold'em - Monday, December 19, 21:02:44 EDT 2005
Table Table 68192 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: elipsesjeff ( $277.50 )
Seat 2: bernad29 ( $291.08 )
Seat 3: jkfree ( $255 )
Seat 4: NutzInUrMouf ( $185 )
Seat 5: JRTwolf ( $322.50 )
Seat 6: bigbilly133 ( $261 )
bigbilly133 posts small blind [$2].
elipsesjeff posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to elipsesjeff [ 3c Ad ]
bernad29 folds.
jkfree folds.
NutzInUrMouf calls [$5].
JRTwolf folds.
bigbilly133 calls [$3].
elipsesjeff checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 8d, 9s ]
bigbilly133 checks.
elipsesjeff bets [$5].
NutzInUrMouf raises [$10].
bigbilly133 calls [$10].
elipsesjeff folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
bigbilly133 checks.
NutzInUrMouf bets [$10].
bigbilly133 calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
>You have options at Table 66357 (6 max) Table!.
bigbilly133 checks.
NutzInUrMouf checks.
bigbilly133 shows [ 8s, Kh ] a pair of eights.
NutzInUrMouf doesn't show [ 8c, Tc ] a pair of eights.
bigbilly133 wins $57 from the main pot with a pair of eights with king kicker.

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More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Demiparadigm

12-20-2005, 02:13 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Why would you ever fold that hand? I would 3/bet that turn and bet/call the river.

I absolutely used to do this, but have been changing my style lately based on some higher level thinking, and some weak tight discussions on 2p2. If I am playing against these weak/tight 2p2 nits, I think the 3bet turn- bet call river may be a bad line. What if Villain is 18/5/1.5?

I need a better example hand. How do you play it if you have AA instead of JJ?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

elipsesjeff

12-20-2005, 02:26 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Why would you ever fold that hand? I would 3/bet that turn and bet/call the river.

Calling down.

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More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

|~|ypermegachi

12-20-2005, 02:51 AM

#6 (permalink)

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agree mostly with jeff on this one. although i'll check/call the river if they cap the turn on me cuz i'll fear a higher set (they did 3bet preflop)

Demiparadigm

12-21-2005, 04:28 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

agree mostly with jeff on this one. although i'll check/call the river if they cap the turn on me cuz i'll fear a higher set (they did 3bet preflop)

Well, Jeff's line is standard, and the one I use.

I am just not sure it is the BEST line. that's why I started this thread.

Look at the JJ hand again.
What happens when you 3 bet the turn and lead the river as opposed to check raising the river?
Specifically, how much does it cost to showdown when behind in the 2 lines?
How much do you make when ahead with the 2 lines?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

|~|ypermegachi

12-21-2005, 05:05 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Look at the JJ hand again.
What happens when you 3 bet the turn and lead the river as opposed to check raising the river?
Specifically, how much does it cost to showdown when behind in the 2 lines?
How much do you make when ahead with the 2 lines?

behind, line river check raise
turn, 2 bets lost
river, 2 bets lost (or 3 if you call down)
total = 4 (or 5 bets) lost

behind, line turn 3bet
total = 5 bets lost
(4 on the turn and 1 on the river, or 3 on the turn and 2 on the river)

ahead, line river check raise
turn, 2 bets won
river, 2 bets won (or 1 if they don't call down)
total = 4 (or 3) won

ahead, line turn 3bet
total = 4 bets won
(3 on the turn, 1 on the river)

i'm making some assumptions here. whenever villain raises, we assume that we are behind. whenever they call down, we are ahead.

so...it seems like the ability to fold the river is pretty big here, but i doubt either player will fold the river. so i guess they're both the same. but the 3bet line prevents a river check through, which would be pretty bad.

StinkyBeaver

12-21-2005, 08:47 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Denmark

Posts: 275

Cap preflop even OOP

He will go a long ways with AQ or KQ here

YOU NEVER EVER FOLD A SET HU PERIOD.

StinkyBeaver

12-21-2005, 09:05 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Denmark

Posts: 275

Why are you seeing ghosts here Demi...?

This is not a hand where you should be thinking about how to save bets, but more like how to get the most money in the pot. You have a massive chance to take this one down even though villian is a little on the tight side I really think you gotta give full speed here.

Imagine this was NL would you try not to get ALL IN since he might potentially have QQ or KK here..?

IMO This could be AQs, AK, KQs, 77, QQ, KK, AA. You beat more than half of these.

If this hand was capped on both flop and turn I might see a reason not to go nuts on the river. I don't think you have enough info in this hand. He calls 3-bet on the flop that doesn't look like QQ. He raises turn but couldn't this be AK or KQ..? throw a third bet after him and evaluate if he caps.

If this was AA instead you again would cap preflop. You also would 3-bet flop and if we assume he calls 3-bet then you lead turn. When he raises turn we are gonna be in a more tough situation since with 3 broadways out there. HU I still 3bet turn and lead river if he calls. if he caps I'm fucked, but I can't fold it though it might be the right choice.

|~|ypermegachi

12-21-2005, 04:38 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by StinkyBeaver

He calls 3-bet on the flop that doesn't look like QQ.

i'd rather take the extra risk and slowplay against an aggressive opponent and put in 2 big bets on the turn instead of another small bet on the flop and make them call down turn and river.

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