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Hiatus
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02-02-2005, 05:16 AM
Post subject: Bet or check the flop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7
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Royal Vegas .05/.10 (8 handed)
Pre-flop: Hero is BB with  
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, BT calls, SB calls, Hero checks
Flop: (4 SB)   
SB checks...
Am I supposed to check or bet?
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gutshot
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
Posts: 608
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Bet.
You have top pair, full house draw, two pair draw, and backdoor flush draw.
2 7s, 3 Ts, 2 2s or any spade (17 cards) improve your hand.
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-jay
"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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BET!
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Hiatus
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7
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Thanks for the responses. This is the first time I've posted, by the way. I'm new to poker and I just read SSH. It looks like I'm misapplying one of the new concepts I learned--this whole business about reverse implied odds.
I checked here. My thinking was that while my hand is most likely best now, it is very likely to be outdrawn. The paired twos belong to everyone, so all I really have is a pair of sevens. Anyone with a higher pocket pair (not likely), or who spikes an overcard (I thought this very likely, but maybe I'm wrong), has beat me.
I know I can improve with a seven or a ten, but that's only five cards. If I pair the seven I'll most certainly win, but if i pair the ten, it's far from a lock. I can also improve if I hit a spade, but all that gives me is a draw. It looks to me that my hand just isn't going to hold up very often.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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I would have check-raised this from the blind. Why would this not be better than betting?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Dan, I agree with you. I check with the attention of raising. Then you lead out the turn. Granted, there are over cards that could hurt you, and if you bet you could possibly give odds for them to chase your hand. Combined Implied Odds have you beat, so you should check raise to try and isolate opponents force people out of the pot.
Top pair small kicker is an easy check raise from EP, there were 3 people behind you and I would assume someone would bet out at these limits.
You have relatively 8 outs to improve your hand to win although you could win unimproved. However your chance to win unimproved decreases the more people are in the pot.
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Hiatus
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7
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I was unsure whether to check or raise, fearing that my hand was very unlikely to hold up. I didn't even consider a check raise. I normally think of a check raise as a way to build the pot when you have a strong hand. Is the idea here to project a stronger hand than I have in hopes of getting a drawing hand to fold?
In the actual hand, I checked, and it was checked all around. Another seven came on the turn. I bet and everyone folded. That's partly what prompted my post, wondering if I could have extracted more out of this.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hiatus
That's partly what prompted my post, wondering if I could have extracted more out of this.
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With this position I'm happy with the money already in the pot. So much so, that I regularly bluff at boards like this.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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Blinds can buy raggy boards.
When the BB gets in for free you never really know what they have. They can easily lay claim to a pair of 5's on the board.
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Fortune 500
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bluffalupagus
Posts: 1,261
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You've got to fire at this pot. You're likely best here. If you get called, fire again on the turn. The overs that miss will usually lay down here.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hiatus
I didn't even consider a check raise. I normally think of a check raise as a way to build the pot when you have a strong hand. Is the idea here to project a stronger hand than I have in hopes of getting a drawing hand to fold?
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If I check this I would want it to be checked around as far as possible, ideally having the button bet. I can then raise and face the rest of the field call two cold. The more people that are faced with a cold call, the better you are protecting your vulnerable hand.
eJeff-
in this situation where you are BB and check, then if UTG bets out would you still raise if you get multiple callers? You might then be able to check the turn and have it checked around because the other players would fear another check raise if the turn is an apparent blank. If all the players call the UTG bet and you raise, they are going to call again. This padded pot will help give you odds to draw to the four out full-house even though it cost you one more small bet to get the odds up high-enough to consider drawing.
Am I off on this thinking? Would you check-raise the flop regardless of who bets out here?
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Ayce
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Bet - here's why.
You have three limpers and you are probably best right now.
Most people would raise AA-JJ, AK, AQ. It is possible someone has TT-88 but more likely your opposition has higher broadway cards or suited connectors. If you give them a free card it's more likely to hurt you and benefit them.
You want to take that pot right now.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Even if you want to take the pot right here, you are not going to. At this limit, they're not going to fold on the flop.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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I agree with betting out.
You can argue that they won't fold if you bet out, but I would assert that they'll call a C/R around as well.
Plus, you might induce a a fold or two, which can only help minimize the number of cards that can hurt you on the T and R.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Unfortunately, I'm on the fence on this one, but leaning towards betting. Regardless of the way you play it, you need to select the play that you think will best protect your vulnerable hand!
You can make valid arguments for both plays (bet or go for the CR). It comes down to your assessment of the likelihood of (i) pulling off the CR, and (ii) getting or not getting cold-callers if you do pull off the CR .
IMHO, you must Bet to protect your vulnerable hand. (Although, depending on your opponents a CR could also protect your hand just as well, if not better.) For this specific scenario, I think betting will protect your hand better, and here's my reasons why:
1. You'll likely get some over-cards to fold which is VERY good cuz' they might spike a higher pair on later streets. (granted that's precisely what pulling off a successful CR is intended to do too (if and only if you don't get cold callers))
2. You might get raised which could be valuable info for you before going into the double bet streets. You'd like to know if there's another X7 hand out there where X>10. (granted, this might happen in the CR scenario too, but that will cost you another sb).
3. Pulling off the check raise isn't as likely compared to when there are more people seeing the flop. You only have you (BB), the SB, UTG+1 and the button seeing the flop, so only 2 possible people (UTG+1 & the button) to help you pull off the CR.
4. If you try for the CR, it might get checked around = no good. At these limits, the same people that would have called your bet (had you not gone for the CR) might likely still call two cold anyways.
5. You might take it down right there. Taking down the pot right on the flop is VERY good. Then the potential for overcards beating your hand is null. You should be ecstatic to win a small pot with 10-7.
6. Side benefit: You might get 3 callers to your bet which is good if you are best AND IF your hand holds-up.
It comes down to your reads:
(a) the button, and UTG+1; are they likely to bet if you check the flop?
(b) if the CR works, are your opponents likely to call-two-cold or not?
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