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Brodie
Old 12-23-2004, 04:33 AM     Post subject: Beat slowplay #1 (permalink)  
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After reading Small Stakes Hold 'em I decided to try playing limit again. I, like I think a lot of others, started off playing limit but then switched to NL because my agression skills were much better than my math skills.

However, my math has gotten better, so I'm playing limit again and really enjoying it. However, I am having a bit of a problem with the super loose players slowplaying strong hands. A typical situation is that these players limp or even call a raise with something like 10-3, flop two pair and simply call all the way down to the river giving no indication at all as to the strength of their hand. So I feel relatively confident with something like TPTK on the river that I have the best hand and lo and behold I don't.

I've tried being even more aggressive (checking hoping that one of the other loose aggressive players at the table will bet so I can check-raise), but that doesn't seem to scare anyone. The only other thing I can think of is to be a bit more timid, but that seems wrong.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Brodie

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gabe
Old 12-23-2004, 04:57 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I have lost some money today in a similiar fashion. Like once, I called in MP with KJo, flop comes K-rag-rag. I bet every round until the river, UTG had AKo and took the pot. It was like I was doing the betting for him.
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elipsesjeff
Old 12-23-2004, 05:11 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Brodie, hang in there, you'll do fine. Just be glad those guys with the two-pair dont raise you because they are saving you money by not raising.

I always assume I have the best hand unless I am raised back at. Check-raising won't always scare people away, but what it does do is give them incorrect odds to call you. If they call beyond that then that is only giving you money in the long run.

This week has been goofy for everyone, at stars and at Party. Don't let bonus week discourage your limit play. Just play within your BR and the variance will come back.


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Brodie
Old 12-23-2004, 06:05 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the positive words, I really appreciate it! I hadn't thought about being thankful they're not raising because these pots can get quite large (lots of players seeing the flop) and I would probably be calling many of the raises.

It's amazing...some of these guys won't even raise when given the opportunity to do so on the river with the nuts. I really think they don't understand the relative strength of their hands and don't know when they have the best hand possible given the board. But that's all good for us...
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steviebrutal
Old 12-23-2004, 08:01 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel
I have lost some money today in a similiar fashion. Like once, I called in MP with KJo, flop comes K-rag-rag. I bet every round until the river, UTG had AKo and took the pot. It was like I was doing the betting for him.
Thats his loss, he should have gotten value for that hand. By allowing you to play your KJo in MP - hes giving you the right price to draw out on him. Its hard sometimes to see the effect in the long run - but its also something to make note of about the respective opponents.
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Brodie
Old 12-25-2004, 10:15 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I guess slowplaying can backfire, too.

PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 5, UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4, 7, 5 (5 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

River: (18 BB) 5 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, MP3 folds, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 29 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 5d 5c (four of a kind, fives)
UTG has 9s As (flush, ace high).
SB has 3h 3d (two pair, fives and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 29 BB.

I've been studying this hand for the last 20 minutes or so and in retrospect I think I was too aggressive. I knew I was trying to dodge the flush bullet, but I didn't think for a second that UTG had it because he never showed any signs of aggression. I probably should be have been afraid of the MP player who raised on the turn, but I decided to reraise instead of folding (perhaps a very bad move in terms of EV) thinking my set was the best hand. But it's kind of nice to suckout once in a while when you're wrong! :P
Brodie

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|~|ypermegachi
Old 12-25-2004, 10:48 PM #7 (permalink)  
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it was well played. cap the flop and turn, and call down the river if you miss. you have 7 outs to a full house or quads on the turn, and 10 outs to the river. you have a huge pot equity here, raise for value.

with such a coordinated board, it's hands like this that will win you the most money because flushs and straights are possible. raise the crap outta them.
 
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LeFou
Old 12-26-2004, 04:09 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie
SB has 3h 3d (two pair, fives and threes).
LOL tell this guy to come over to my house and play. Underpair and gutshot versus damn near a straight flush, let's bet it out!!!

Also note it's the ignorant end of the straight if he makes it.

At the river: crap, I didn't improve or make my draw and every single f___ing card on the board is higher than my pair. Oh well, let's call a couple more bets...
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Manomanman
Old 12-26-2004, 07:41 PM #9 (permalink)  
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It's all about flop playing skills. You make fewer mistakes after flop (and in your hand selection) = you win more. It is a mistake to play lots of junk hands from any position. Suited hands are key to winning multiway pots.

The key to microlimit is to chase better than the others, meaning you've got to be adept at recognizing when players are sharing each others outs. It's really a math game, not a poker game. Long-term is the name of the game; you can't tell you're doing well until you've logged dozens of hours.
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ChezJ
Old 12-27-2004, 01:03 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 i agree with whoever made the comment that the tables are all goofy this week. i have been posting in the offline cardroom forum about my experiences playing 3/6 at casino arizona and fort mcdowell casino. first of all, i cannot catch starting hands to save my life and have lost about a hundred dollars in blinds alone. second, when i do catch TPTK and bet it to the river, someone inevitably shows 2 pair on the flop or a set which they never bet or raised. and then when i catch a rare flush, someone fills up on the river and doesn't raise!? i'm thankful that these people don't know how to bet, saving me a fortune, but so far the cards have been so cold for me that the order-of-magnitude skill differential between me and the other players has had no effect on my profitability. after 12 hours i am down $270 (45 BB).

ChezJ
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