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AKQJ
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04-01-2009, 03:55 PM
Post subject: bankroll management for SH
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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I am using a 1000BB rule for SH games. I started at $0.25-$0.5 and I am currently playing $0.5-$1 with a ~$1500 bankroll (only 6max). I have 750BB for $1-$2 and I need 250 more to play this limit. Should I use a tighter BRM for higher limits(given the fact that the games are more aggressive and there are more regulars) or 1000BB is enough?
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Good god I read that as 100BB at first! 300BB would be the absolute minimum for SH. 1000BB is more than enough IMO. I use 300BB for FR and 600BB for SH. This is FL we're talking about after all.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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AKQJ
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Maybe for 0.5/1, 600BB or even 500BB is enough. But if I have, let's say a 200BB downswing, I will have to move down a limit and I hate to do this. That's why I have a 1000BB rule.
Do you think I can start playing $1/$2 with 750BB and if I lose 150BB return to $0.5/$1?
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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I would only use a 1000BB at 10/20+ and I was playing for a living. Don't be afraid to move up, and don't be afraid to move down. Do you know how many pros have went broke because they refused to move down? 600BB IMO is plenty for SH when you set a stop/loss at say +/- 450BB.
There ain't much difference in play between 25c/50c up to 3/6. Ask any of the regs here and they'll tell you. 750BB at 1/2 6max would be more than enough for me, however everyone's different.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
Do you think I can start playing $1/$2 with 750BB and if I lose 150BB return to $0.5/$1?
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Yes, unless you'll think you'll play scared since you're below your own brm rule.
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asdpikas
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,056
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i use 1000 BB rule since i got to 3/6 and 5/10
up to 1/2 i only used 250BB, and 500BB at 2/4. This was risky, but i had to do it because i had to withdraw money regularly to pay rent/bills.
use what you feel comfy with, BUT MOVE DOWN without any regrets!!!
that is really important.
I dont know how long i just hovered between 1/2 and 2/4. Even now, depending on sites, i may play 1/2, 2/4, whatever... This gives you a lot more room to maneuver and is safer both economically and psychologically. I just don't get why people hate to move down... what's the big deal?
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"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by asdpikas
I just don't get why people hate to move down... what's the big deal?
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one word: EGO! it's like demoting yourself at work. people feel shame in doing so. once you get past that, life gets much easier.
i play more or less casually (semi-serious). i dont want to reload, and in the US, its more difficult. that said, i still dont use a huge br management system. i want at least 20 BI's if i start playing NL more regularly. i want 200 bb's for the highest levels of LHE, fr or 6max, but i reside more comfortably in a range where i have 600+. i just dont fear taking shots outside my "forum-approved" bankroll for the sake of a great game. hell, i only have 500 bb's for 1/2 and have been posting hands from there lately. so, i will violate my own system from time to time. (but not really because i will not go back when things go poorly)
again, taking ME for instance, i carry plenty for 25/50 and 50/1. i am almost ready for 1/2, technically. but, i am not comfortable with playing 50/1....at any br. there is a jump in aggression that i have not adjusted well to. i jumped over it to 1/2 and found much softer competition on a very small sample. so, i am more comfortable there, and am close bankroll wise. but, you will still see me camping at 25/50 for awhile. why? because i dont care what others think. i play where i have money to cover me and where i am most comfortable. the shots i have taken at 50/1 amount to about 1500 hands where i get clobbered for a -6/100! i know thats mostly a cooler, but i still dont like it....so, i move back down. i move back up once i am feeling cocky again, and over time, the hands will accumulate and my stats will start to appear. until then, i can wait....its no big deal. i guarantee you my "risk of ruin" is as close to zero as anyone's. therefore, i could lower my requirements even further......but, i wont.
imo, its just not as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be. you take shots, camp out at one primary level, and dont fear moving down when you get clobbered. i have been on this "system," if you can call it one, for 2+ years. and, i've made more money, taken more shots, cleared more bonuses, made more rakeback, played better tourneys, learned more about the game, and most importantly....
PLAYED MORE RELAXED, MENTALLY.....and, you cant put a price on that.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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asdpikas
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,056
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I still move up and down. EVEN WHEN I DONT REALLY NEED TO!
I like to bonus whore a bit, so i may open a new account at site X, with rakeback and a nice bonus. Obviously, i wont deposit huge amounts. What i like to do is to deposit the minimum to get the full bonus amount (say for example $500) and grind it up and clear the bonus playing lower limits than i play at the bigger sites where i make a living.
This acomplishes several goals. 1st being that i will keep in touch with different styles of fish from different levels (improving my game). 2nd, I will tone down a bit my EGO (in capital letters because it's quite big). 3rd, I will have the choice of where/when/what stakes to play at any given time according to how i feel, if i'm tired/sick, if i just want to spew a bit, etc... 3rd, it gives me some other smaller goals to achieve in the short term, keeping my interest going a bit. 4th, it allows to get used to other softwares/site rules without risking too much if I feel uncomfortable. 5th, my roll is better spread (security reasons).
The list goes on...
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"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
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RAMARAIDER
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BANNED
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11
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1000BBs? for a limit game?
even short handed, u wouldn't need more than 400bb for sh and 200bb full ring, if u are playing premium hands for profit. Higher amount of bb would suggest playing too many or overplaying hands or playing too high a level.
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AKQJ
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RAMARAIDER
1000BBs? for a limit game?
even short handed, u wouldn't need more than 400bb for sh and 200bb full ring, if u are playing premium hands for profit. Higher amount of bb would suggest playing too many or overplaying hands or playing too high a level.
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Take a look at this threads:
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...Number=3361535
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/22...2-6max-355781/
Even if that 650BB downswing was on 10/20, it happened in 2005 where the games were very soft. Probably 10/20 in 2005 is comparable with 1/2 in 2009.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
Probably 10/20 in 2005 is comparable with 1/2 in 2009.
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i would love to know how you came to this conclusion. i always like to compare "eras," but this may be going a little far.
i can tell you, from experience, that 3/6 live is comparable to 5c/10c online. if you can beat 25c/50c online, you should handle a small stakes casino game w/o much of a problem.
but, i dont know about 10/20 online then vs 1/2 online today. 3/6 i could believe. i just dont think the games have changed that much on the LHE side.
NL, yes, much different. i carried a 3 at 100NL, double-digits at 25NL, and couldnt duplicate either one anymore. i would be hard pressed to carry a 8 ptbb/100 at 10NL, imo. but, maybe i'm wrong.
do tell. i am not attacking you. i am actually wanting to discuss where your theory comes from.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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I think first hand experience is required to make a call like that. I don't think anyone who played 10/20 in 2005 is seriously playing 1/2 today, certainly not any of us, so it's a tough statement to make. But I'll definitely agree that the micro-stakes games are tougher today than they were even two years ago. I blame Sklansky, that dirty nut. 
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I think first hand experience is required to make a call like that. I don't think anyone who played 10/20 in 2005 is seriously playing 1/2 today, certainly not any of us, so it's a tough statement to make. But I'll definitely agree that the micro-stakes games are tougher today than they were even two years ago. I blame Sklansky, that dirty nut. |
frist, and forums, imo.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I think first hand experience is required to make a call like that. I don't think anyone who played 10/20 in 2005 is seriously playing 1/2 today, certainly not any of us, so it's a tough statement to make. But I'll definitely agree that the micro-stakes games are tougher today than they were even two years ago. I blame Sklansky, that dirty nut. |
frist, and forums, imo. |
As a serious answer, yes. But I like blaming Sklansky for everything, especially Asian Flu. Playing in a B&M, he wipes his nose with his hand and then plays with his chips. He also goes to the bathroom only to return to the table without washing his hands.
Between that and teaching college kids how to check-raise, I almost can't stand the guy.
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AKQJ
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
Probably 10/20 in 2005 is comparable with 1/2 in 2009.
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i would love to know how you came to this conclusion. i always like to compare "eras," but this may be going a little far. |
Did you read the hand examples from Internet Texas Holdem by M. Hilger? It was written in 2003, and if you read it you will be surprised how many limpers and how many multi-way pots were at limits higher than 10/20. Between 2005 and 2003 there are only 2 years. Also in SSH, the authors say that you can win $50, 000 a year playing 3-6 online if you read their book. And that book was written for ultra loose games. If 3-6 was ultra loose I imagine 10/20 was loose enough for a nice win rate.
Also, the OP from that thread was a 3BB/100 winner at 10/20. "My overall win rate at Party 10/20 6max is around 3BB/100 over 500,000 hands which includes this nasty 650BB down swing."
3BB/100 is considered a good win rate at 1$/2$. A 3BB/100 winner had a 650BB downswing. His winrate at 10/20 is comparable with a winrate at 1/2 in 2009. Without that downswing he would have had a winrate bigger than 3BB/100. There aren't many players who have a winrate bigger than 3BB/100 at 1/2. That's why I made that comparison.
In conclusion, it doesn't really matter if 10/20 from 2005 is comparable to 1/2 from 2009. It matters that he was a 3BB/100 winner and had a 650BB downswing.
At micro limits you can use a BRM smaller than 1000 BB for sure but at higher limits it will be difficult for a player who has used only 400BB BRM to change it to 1000BB. And I'm afraid using a tight BRM at higher limits it's a must.
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asdpikas
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,056
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
At micro limits you can use a BRM smaller than 1000 BB for sure but at higher limits it will be difficult for a player who has used only 400BB BRM to change it to 1000BB. And I'm afraid using a tight BRM at higher limits it's a must.
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why would it be difficult? It wasn't for me... i just stayed longer at a level before going up again (where i would've gone up with 500BB, i stayed until i had 1000BB)
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AKQJ
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Every player is different. There are many players who have "gamble" tendencies and can't respect BRM. They play at high limits with only 3 buy-ins. And even if they go broke and lose all their bankroll they are able to do the same thing next time with their new bankroll. There are players who tilt very quickly and don't have patience, there are players who don't tilt so easy. For you it wasn't difficult. For me I think it is.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
I think first hand experience is required to make a call like that. I don't think anyone who played 10/20 in 2005 is seriously playing 1/2 today, certainly not any of us, so it's a tough statement to make. But I'll definitely agree that the micro-stakes games are tougher today than they were even two years ago. I blame Sklansky, that dirty nut. |
frist, and forums, imo. |
As a serious answer, yes. But I like blaming Sklansky for everything, especially Asian Flu. Playing in a B&M, he wipes his nose with his hand and then plays with his chips. He also goes to the bathroom only to return to the table without washing his hands.
Between that and teaching college kids how to check-raise, I almost can't stand the guy. |
lol. c'mon, benny, how many others do we sit next to that dont wash after pee pee or scratching the schnozz? poker players are hygienic nightmares, by trade. many dont shower often enough to keep the flies away.
i dont like him for teaching others, either, but he has taught me a good deal, and for that, i thank him.....and forums. i, however, dont thank frist. he has done shit for me or anyone else.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
In conclusion, it doesn't really matter if 10/20 from 2005 is comparable to 1/2 from 2009. It matters that he was a 3BB/100 winner and had a 650BB downswing.
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i still dont see the obsession most players have with sticking at one level only with the "proper bankroll," as deemed proper by the poker community and many references to risk of ruin and standard deviation. all of which mean about squat, unless you plan to stick it out 'till busto at your given level. i could carry a very small bankroll and still have a risk of ruin of zilch because i will not play a level long enough before moving down. and, if worse comes to worse, i will withdraw the leftovers and stop playing. (not that i see that happening)
why not carry a smaller bankroll and be more willing to move down? you should, theoretically, move up faster. but, i guess you could also argue that carrying a bigger roll will allow you to stay at the higher level longer w/o moving down. it may all be 6 one way, half dozen the other....you say tomato, i say tomahto.
i happen to think that table/game selection is more important today than it was yesterday. and, being a bit more flexible within your roll will allow you to take some shots at higher levels faster so long as you have the discipline to move back down when things go awry.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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asdpikas
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,056
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
Also in SSH, the authors say that you can win $50, 000 a year playing 3-6 online if you read their book. |
winning 50k/year is very feasable at 3/6 online. Whether you will get there just by reading their book is another matter.
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AKQJ
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28
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Of couse it is. I wanted to pointed out that the games were very loose a couple of years ago compared to today's games. In that book all the examples were multi-way, no heads-up pots. Even at 5c/10c the games are tighter nowadays than the games described in SSH.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AKQJ
Even at 5c/10c the games are tighter nowadays than the games described in SSH.
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this i agree with....for the most part.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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