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Bad players in loose games (concept discussion)..

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Chopper

10-22-2009, 07:14 PM Post subject: Bad players in loose games (concept discussion)..

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Here is a concept I have been reviewing and would like to open up for discussion..Bad Players in Loose Games.

This is an adjustment made that can contradict the textbook +EV move, but, in the right situation, earns more. I don't do it often because I don't really understand, or pick up on, when it is most applicable. But, I would like to start thinking about it since I feel i make the correct EV decision 90%(probably a little less) of the time in standard situations.

From HEFAP: "Suppose a tough player to your right bets and there is a bad player to your left. If the situation is close between raising and calling, even if the scale tips more towards raising, you should NOT raise. This applies on ALL betting rounds."

Sklansky goes on to say if the raise will likely knock the bad player out, you should just call in a spot like this.

Of course, it goes without saying, on the river, we are likely going to an overcall situation instead of reopening the betting for the "tough" player. We don't want to see a 3bet, and we don't want to knock out the bad player when we are almost certain he will pay off one more bet.

Sklansky says, "There are some exceptions where you have a hand that plays better HU, but in many situations, typical players are raising too much and not giving the weak player behind a chance to call."

Sklansky sites two reasons: 1) When you get to play against an obvious bad player, he is going to make mistakes against you. 2) The second reason is seldom thought about, and it has to do with the "protected pot."

And, it works like this (and THIS is the part I want to discuss)...

When you keep a bad player in on a close decision, you won't have to guess as much when the good player bets. The good player is FAR less likely to bluff because he knows even if YOU fold, the bad player will likely call. This has the effect of slowing the tough player down, and we should take advantage of that.....and we should bluff more in this spot to get HU with the bad player. Since we know the tough player won't bluff, and is likely to respect OUR raise, we will get the bad player isolated when the relative position is correct to do so. And, of course, if the tough player reraises, we know we are beat and can make a nice fold.

Can you give an example, other than Sklansky's, where you do this? I can't think of a single one. It makes some sense, but I don't ever see it being applicable to smaller stakes games online. I don't think multi-tablers have enough time to spot these situations but once every 100k hands or so.

Maybe I am being dense here. Please enlighten me if you play smallish stakes and can find spots to pull this one off.

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Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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LawDude

10-22-2009, 08:30 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Well, actually, the protected pot thing is something I do think about more generally (not really limited to Sklansky's scenario)-- if I have a hand that is likely best but weak enough to be vulnerable to a bluff, I may want players that I beat to stay in the pot if it makes the bluff less likely. The problem is that it is hard to determine that you are in this scenario because one of the dangers of not being aggressive is you never find out where you are in the hand.

asdpikas

10-22-2009, 08:41 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

KQ on a AK7r board? if raiser doesnt have the ace he will likely respect our call just as much as a raise and is less likely to fire away with TT. Since our hand is not so vulnerable we can hope fish comes along with worse.

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

Chopper

10-22-2009, 08:59 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

awesome, guys.

dude, i agree that it's hard to know when you are in that spot. i tend to continue the aggression because when i slow up to "keep someone in" i end up sort of slowplaying a marginal hand and lose a decent pot. arrgh.

asd, good example. i tend to raise there to prevent a draw out of a gutter or some crappy pp that luckboxes his set. on good days, i take a decent pot with initiative. on my bad days i either get rivered or find A4o in that one. and, i dont even fire TT into that pot often when i had the pf initiative. i dont think 3rd pair in the hole in a small stakes game is worth a cbet there, even if it checks around to me. i am pretty much looking for the escape hatch.

keep 'em coming. this may help me understand some of these scenarios better than, "i am ahead/behind, therefore, i raise/fold." it may get me a little farther off my nitty fit/fold style....and make me better.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

10-22-2009, 09:52 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

asd, good example. i tend to raise there to prevent a draw out of a gutter or some crappy pp that luckboxes his set.

Well, depends on the odds, but if say u were BB, sb is PF raiser (fish limp/called). your call only gives 8-1 to the fish, so he is already getting bad odds, and calling with a gutshot or pp will be a mistake. If you raise, you almost "force" him to do the correct thing and fold.

It will definitely increase variance but will also bring higher rewards.

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

ponyboy

10-22-2009, 09:55 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 379

At my level bad players are mostly calling stations. Therefore they have no idea how to fold until they hit the river and even then sometimes will try to bluff with a raise. I usually have extensive notes on these people after one orbit and can play based on that.

What I look for is the guys I have no notes on because they never go to showdown. When they commit to something, you know you're beat more often than not if it is questionable and have a clear fold.

If I have a calling station to my left and have already been raised into by a tight player on my right I normally close up my opening range and just call, because I know for sure the station will call and add to the pot. After the flop if I have a bit of it I'm more worried about the guy on my right and his play and usually ignore whatever the station does - unless he radically changes his play by suddenly raising streets and not calling. Then you know he actually has something.

Therefore I tend to agree with Slansky on this one in my long winded way.

asdpikas

10-22-2009, 09:55 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

also, we get our info cheaper, if fish calls, and raiser fires turn again, we should fold, but if raiser checks (unless he's going for c/r), we are almost sure we are ahead of raiser and playing the fish (wether we are good against the fish is an unknown, but if we were HU with him we'd keep betting for value hoping for worse to call)

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

Chopper

10-22-2009, 10:04 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

asd, good example. i tend to raise there to prevent a draw out of a gutter or some crappy pp that luckboxes his set.

THIS is the spot i don't think about.....and need to. i force a lot of correct folds when they would still be wrong to call along...and might.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

10-22-2009, 10:18 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

mine, too. less, though, now that i have jumped a level. however, they still station it up a bit too much. and, that type of table is generally one where you value bet until they tell you otherwise, and then, usually call down and pay off since they try some of the dumbest bluffs known to mankind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

What I look for is the guys I have no notes on because they never go to showdown. When they commit to something, you know you're beat more often than not if it is questionable and have a clear fold.

i think you know this, but the above is a very generic statement and shouldn't decide everything for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

If I have a calling station to my left and have already been raised into by a tight player on my right I normally close up my opening range and just call, because I know for sure the station will call and add to the pot. After the flop if I have a bit of it I'm more worried about the guy on my right and his play and usually ignore whatever the station does - unless he radically changes his play by suddenly raising streets and not calling. Then you know he actually has something.

Therefore I tend to agree with Slansky on this one in my long winded way.

I think it's standard to overlimp preflop, or even flat a raise so long as you are either positive others are coming or there is already another cold-caller in front. if you are the first to cold call a raise often.....its a huge leak that needs to be addressed. (in our super weak/loose/passive games, like you mentioned, cold calling is usually only bad if you are the first to do it. however, you can also usually count on plenty of others to come along, especially if you get the ball rolling.

)

what you mention, though, about "ignoring what the station does" is why i wrote the OP. i think i do, too. and, i think it's a mistake. ignoring the station is bad. however, HELPING the station along when you would normally raise the bettor, is good.

that one little change, in the right spot, will increase our edge, imo. and, it would behoove us to start looking for these opportunities instead of jamming the raise button to get HU vs the solid player.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

ponyboy

10-23-2009, 04:57 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 379

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

what you mention, though, about "ignoring what the station does" is why i wrote the OP. i think i do, too. and, i think it's a mistake. ignoring the station is bad. however, HELPING the station along when you would normally raise the bettor, is good.

that one little change, in the right spot, will increase our edge, imo. and, it would behoove us to start looking for these opportunities instead of jamming the raise button to get HU vs the solid player.

I'd much rather be heads up against someone where I know their range is wide and they are willing to commit with TPWK or middle two pair. At least that is my thought process.

More likely than not with the solid player you will have a better idea of what they have a line on.

Sometimes the loose player will come up with a brilliant hand but more often than not will spew away chips - they have to go to someone!

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Bad players in loose games (concept discussion)..

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