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Bad fold w/AA? What about telling him my hand?

  
 
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face
Old 04-22-2005, 04:05 AM     Post subject: Bad fold w/AA? What about telling him my hand? #1 (permalink)  
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Villian is rock, multitabler. After I called his turn bet, I told him AA in chat. He bet out on river and I folded. He told me he had QJ 4 hands later when I asked. I think I believe him, and saved an unnecessary bet on the river. Too weak? Is telling someone your hand on the turn too cute?

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Seat{spam link}2:{spam link}fireside6{spam link}($59{spam link}in{spam link}chips)

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Seat{spam link}7:{spam link}marl_1122{spam link}($55{spam link}in{spam link}chips)

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Seat{spam link}10:{spam link}wzeller{spam link}[AD,AS]{spam link}($194.50{spam link}in{spam link}chips)




ANTES/BLINDS
p8ntba11er posts blind ($0.50), WALSH36 posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
marl_1122 folds, nicorettegum folds, ArtashesM folds, wzeller bets $2, HapaJuice folds, fireside6 folds, count_blah calls $2, p8ntba11er folds, WALSH36 calls $1.

FLOP [board cards QH,JS,2C ]
WALSH36 checks, wzeller bets $1, count_blah calls $1, WALSH36 calls $1.

TURN [board cards QH,JS,2C,JH ]
WALSH36 checks, wzeller bets $2, count_blah folds, WALSH36 bets $4, wzeller calls $2.

RIVER [board cards QH,JS,2C,JH,9D ]
WALSH36 bets $2, wzeller folds.

SHOWDOWN
WALSH36 wins $18.75.




SUMMARY
Dealer: count_blah
Pot: $19.50, (including rake: $0.75)
HapaJuice, loses $0
fireside6, loses $0
count_blah, loses $3
p8ntba11er, loses $0.50
WALSH36, bets $9, collects $18.75, net $9.75
marl_1122, loses $0
nicorettegum, loses $0
ArtashesM, loses $0
wzeller, loses $7
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ChezJ
Old 04-22-2005, 04:25 AM #2 (permalink)  
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i was playing $3/$6 B&M today and the following occurred...

i was dealt aces and capped it. FOUR others stayed in for the flop.

flop was jack high, rainbow.

guy on my right bet, i raised, and the TAGG on my left said, "he must have those aces," and folded. the guy next to him folded, and even the original bettor folded.

the dealer paused and all i saw was a bunch of surrendered hands so i thought the hand was over. at this point, i said, "good read" and showed my aces on the table to the TAGG.

suddenly there was a commotion and i realized with horror that the card-chasing moron in MP had cold called me. i looked at the gigantic pot in the middle and said, "OH FUCK," thinking i had just forfeited it.

thankfully, the dealer did not rule my hand dead. he dealt the turn, which was a blank, and i bet. the calling station ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT IT for about 20 seconds before folding. then he muttered something about 2 outs and folded. i'm sure he only had 1 out because the guy who bet the flop probably had a J.

still, this moron had sucked out a gutshot wheel against heavy action earlier. he had also sucked out 2pr with J7 vs my AJ (TPTK). so i was happy to take down the $75 pot minus 1-2 extra big bets.

ChezJ
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Trikflow77
Old 04-22-2005, 04:43 AM #3 (permalink)  
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if you are going to call the turn here, might as well call the river too.
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Fnord
Old 04-22-2005, 04:55 AM     Post subject: Re: Bad fold w/AA? What about telling him my hand? #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by face
Is telling someone your hand on the turn too cute?
Bullshit is part of my live game and that's accepted where I play. However, online I'm less inclined to do somthing like this. Also, consider that in some games this is either bad form or against the rules.
 
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face
Old 04-22-2005, 05:04 AM     Post subject: Re: Bad fold w/AA? What about telling him my hand? #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by face
Is telling someone your hand on the turn too cute?
Bullshit is part of my live game and that's accepted where I play. However, online I'm less inclined to do somthing like this. Also, consider that in some games this is either bad form or against the rules.
It might have been against the rules -- I didn't think of that. Nobody said anything or seemed angry about it. My thinking was that I was almost 8/9ths sure that I was beat after his turn checkraise, given my read on him, the board, and the betting sequence, but not quite. Therefore I decided that if I told him what I had after calling his checkraise on the turn, AND he bet into me on the river (obviously unafraid of being reraised), then I would be more than 8/9ths sure that I was beat making my call -EV.

This play is my attempt to cure what I see as one of my biggest leaks -- playing overpairs too hard and getting married to them in multiway pots when I'm nearly certain I'm beat (see the JJ hand I posted earlier). I've been doing pretty well at 1/2, about 5bb/hr 2-tabling, but overaggression against LAGs and playing overpairs like the nuts are ways I've spewed chips. If this is not a good fold, when is a good fold in this hand, or with AA in general?
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honsheung
Old 04-25-2005, 07:05 AM     Post subject: Re: Bad fold w/AA? What about telling him my hand? #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by face
Villian is rock, multitabler. After I called his turn bet, I told him AA in chat. He bet out on river and I folded. He told me he had QJ 4 hands later when I asked. I think I believe him, and saved an unnecessary bet on the river. Too weak? Is telling someone your hand on the turn too cute?

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ANTES/BLINDS
p8ntba11er posts blind ($0.50), WALSH36 posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
marl_1122 folds, nicorettegum folds, ArtashesM folds, wzeller bets $2, HapaJuice folds, fireside6 folds, count_blah calls $2, p8ntba11er folds, WALSH36 calls $1.

FLOP [board cards QH,JS,2C ]
WALSH36 checks, wzeller bets $1, count_blah calls $1, WALSH36 calls $1.

TURN [board cards QH,JS,2C,JH ]
WALSH36 checks, wzeller bets $2, count_blah folds, WALSH36 bets $4, wzeller calls $2.

RIVER [board cards QH,JS,2C,JH,9D ]
WALSH36 bets $2, wzeller folds.

SHOWDOWN
WALSH36 wins $18.75.




SUMMARY
Dealer: count_blah
Pot: $19.50, (including rake: $0.75)
HapaJuice, loses $0
fireside6, loses $0
count_blah, loses $3
p8ntba11er, loses $0.50
WALSH36, bets $9, collects $18.75, net $9.75
marl_1122, loses $0
nicorettegum, loses $0
ArtashesM, loses $0
wzeller, loses $7
I will call in this hand, the board has not flush danger and not very connected cards, a staight is possible but not very likely.
Anyway, he tell u he has two pair, just ignore what the said, he can say anything, right?
I will call in river
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honsheung
Old 04-25-2005, 07:07 AM #7 (permalink)  
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sorry, he shold have said a full house, right?
anyway, ignore the words is the rule of thumb
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Element187
Old 04-25-2005, 02:14 PM #8 (permalink)  
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you have to be over 99% sure your beat before folding in this case... just call it, hope he was bluffing


small mistake, calling an extra bet on the river to showdown second best hand.

huge mistake, folding the best hand to a river bet.
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Old 04-25-2005, 02:54 PM     Post subject: Re: Bad fold w/AA? What about telling him my hand? #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by face
Therefore I decided that if I told him what I had after calling his checkraise on the turn, AND he bet into me on the river (obviously unafraid of being reraised), then I would be more than 8/9ths sure that I was beat making my call -EV.
interesting logic....considering the pot was laying you 10:1 odds at the end, better than the 9:1 break-even EV given your read.
 
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ChezJ
Old 04-25-2005, 05:42 PM #10 (permalink)  
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i believe villain had it. he has to assume you are going to call him down with your aces no matter what. so his bet on the river can only be a value bet, not a bluff.

here's something that happened to me in a live game once:

i have 92o in the big blind. flop comes 92X and i bet, joking that i have 92o. a couple people call. turn is a blank and i say again that i have 92o. it's down to me and one guy. he hesitates and i flash him my 92o. he STILL thinks about it, and eventually calls!

river is an ace, i bet, he raises. now i'm thinking he could only have raised me if he has a better hand, because he KNOWS i cannot fold in this spot. i call and he shows A2o. what a fish!

but the point is, when you tell or show someone your cards, they are going to fold to you without a better hand and raise into you with a better hand.* only an advanced game theorist who has been in this spot before will attempt to bluff you out, and even then, they are taking a huge risk because they have to know you are very probably not going to lay down your hand. (assuming it is a limit hold em game -- NL is totally different.)

ChezJ

* so in retrospect, the right move on the river was to check, as i would never get paid for having a better hand, and would only lose if he called.
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elipsesjeff
Old 04-25-2005, 05:52 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trikflow77
if you are going to call the turn here, might as well call the river too.


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