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Hermann the Lombard
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09-06-2007, 07:32 PM
Post subject: Baby Steps 4 - Bailing out
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)
Preflop: Hero is SB with  ,  .
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.
Flop: (7 SB)  ,  ,  (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 raises, 1 fold, CO raises, SB...
Okay, I have top pair, no kicker, backdoor flush draw to 2nd nuts, and a possible raise behind me. I bailed with 4:1 pot odds and too many ways to lose this hand! Thoughts?
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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bet flop?
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Ni Han
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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whats our plan on the flop if its just 1 bet back to us?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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It depends where the bet comes from, I think.
Leading the flop would have made the decision making a lot easier.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
Leading the flop would have made the decision making a lot easier.
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By sucking us in one bet at a time?
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
It depends where the bet comes from, I think.
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Agreed. If it's from early position, call. If it's from late position, raise.
Quote:
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Leading the flop would have made the decision making a lot easier.
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With this many limpers, I like the check to see who and how many people like their hands. If we lead, get a call and then a raise, we have to peel and then likely check-fold the turn.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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I'd be checking the flop and hoping for someone in late position to bet, giving me a checkraise and a chance to thin the field a bit and protect my hand.
Calling two cold, with the chance of another reraise, is a bit risky. You are probably ahead now, but one of them likely has 4 to a flush or possibly a better kicker. I might talk myself into a peel and a check-fold on the turn, but with that kind of flop action, a weaker hand and a fairly small pot I'd probably let it go.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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lol at thinning the field at this level with a c/r in an already large pot.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
lol at thinning the field at this level with a c/r in an already large pot.
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Sure, probably not possible, but worth a try to buy an out or two. And it gives you a chance to get out if the action is too heavy. Any players who have read anything at all about poker will react to a checkraise, and if the middle position people are checking already then they probably don't like their hands much. Better to push them out than to give them a cheap card.
Flush draws, other kings and probably a queen would likely call, but someone with a gutshot or bottom pair might fold, which increases your chance to win the hand.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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My thoughts when I checked the fold included both the possibility of a c/r and a gut feeling that with this many active players *somebody* has a better kicker. That last feeling is also known as "chicken." 
You know, it makes me feel better to know that a "simple" situation like this draws a variety of comments from players as experienced as you are. I can get many of the obvious ones right, now.
BTW, this isn't the best forum for it, but what is "to peel"? That one isn't in the "What the hell does [x] mean?" thread yet. Another is a positive meaning of "donking" as the thread only includes the negative versions.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard
BTW, this isn't the best forum for it, but what is "to peel"? That one isn't in the "What the hell does [x] mean?" thread yet. Another is a positive meaning of "donking" as the thread only includes the negative versions.
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To "peel one off" generally means calling a bet one one street (usually because of good odds) to see if the next card off the deck helps us. A helping card isn't necessarily one that improves our hand, it might be a card that slows down our opponent, or at least doesn't help them.
In the hand above, if we peel a card we're looking to see either a diamond, king or 6. Although a non-spade card below 6 would also be helpful in that it's not harmful to our hand, so if we were ahead before, we're still ahead. If a gross card like a ten, jack, ace or spade hits, we can pretty safely check-fold the hand since we aren't beating much if anything.
To "donk bet" means betting into someone who has raised on the previous street, or otherwise shown strength. The "donk" part comes from the fact that quite often it is a weak play, since with a strong hand/draw that connected usually you'd go for a check-raise on the next street since the aggressor will usually bet.
Hope that helps.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Thanks, it does indeed.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
Leading the flop would have made the decision making a lot easier.
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By sucking us in one bet at a time? |
The alternative is folding the best hand to retarded aggression. Hard to say without reads though.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
The alternative is folding the best hand to retarded aggression. Hard to say without reads though.
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True. Early in the session and I'm not good with online reads yet. I am making notes as I notice things and I am running PokerTracker but that's a miniscule 500 hands so far. I only have 50+ hands for about 12 players.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Most players are fairly predictable, and preflop activity gives you a fairly good idea of their starting hand strength. I get a lot of benefit from focusing my notes on what a player will raise with in ep, mp, lp, and what they will merely limp with (and where).
If you see someone raise with   in early position,
but limp  you have a pretty good idea of his hand strength when he raises or limps in later hands.
It also gives you something to do during all those garbage hands that you autofold like
 
Of course some players are totally spastic and will limp  one hand then raise  :Jd: the next, but taking notes helps identify them pretty quickly too.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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The ones who limp with   one time and raise with   another time confuse the issue, shooting them would simplify matters (but that would be a -EV move).
BTW, question for Fnord: Okay, I hate to ask but I give up, what is "Ni Han"? Hainan I know, Ni Han...
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Coincidentally I just had a hand very similar to the OP one but with--I think--one significant difference:
In the Big Blind this time with  
UTG and MP3 limp, CO raises, Button and SB fold, I call, limpers call. (4 players, 8.5 small bets)
Flop   
I check, 2 more checks to CO who bets. Here we have the "lay down the Kings" hand but with the backdoor nut flush draw. I think that's reason enough to continue. If I'm going to work the flush draw I want to keep the others in the hand so I call but it doesn't work, they both fold. (2 players, 5 big bets).
Turn: 
Now I have the nut flush draw, head up. I checked, CO bet, 6:1 pot odds and 4:1 against the flush. That seems like an easy call.
River:
Check, bet. Now I'm sure I'm beaten, but am I 8:1 sure? I call.
CO shows   more or less as expected.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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The preflop call is thin enough that I'm often going to just fold to save myself the aggravation. I'm not confident enough in my postflop play to play hands like this out of position against a raise.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Yeah, I fold preflop, but after that your play makes sense. I wouldn't call anything in the BB that I wouldnt play in mp myself, unless it is a steal attempt - which is rarely even possible in microlimits.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Ah, at this point I'm still trying to follow the SSH (Miller, etc.) starting hands and in the BB they have all the suited Kings and Aces playing against a raise, even suited connectors as far down as 54s (no, I don't go that far but I also don't know where to draw the line).
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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You're following the preflop guidelines for loose tables (6+ on the flop), but it's just barely with this hand, IMO. There is a huge difference postflop between BB and button in terms of options and playability.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with completing PF
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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You're right - I thought he was in BB calling a raise. I retract what I said above.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Um, I don't get off that easily, I *was* in the BB calling the raise.
That game was a loose one though only four saw the flop on that hand. The BB "tight" list goes down to K9s but maybe I shouldn't go there until my postflop play gets better.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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It does depend on who is in the hand and who made the raise, but yeah, it's a marginal call at best.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arborman
Sure, probably not possible, but worth a try to buy an out or two.
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Which outs are we buying? Noone is folding a K. if someone has a 6 they are probably folding anyway and we have the second nut flush draw so we only need Axs to fold. AQs isnt possible. AKs isnt folding and any missed Axs hand probably folds anyway no? (Or calls a raise anyway...). So A8s is the only hand I see that we potentially buy outs from. Is that really worth raising?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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KY_Ace
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 259
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I would fold KT and down here, you'll almost always be behind or you'll be up against some big draws. Back door flush draw is only good for very borderline decisions, this is a clear fold. You'll hit the BDF 5% of the time but sometimes you'll get the first card and not the second so you can't value that 5% the same way you'd value a 2 outer. But then again it's only 0.02/0.04 so forget everything i just said, but feel free to apply this to higher limits or any game where the players are playing like they play for higher limits.
Seeing the turn and only continuing if you improove or pick up the draw is not that bad, but don't get sucked into paying off the river unless it's a board where a high kicker won't play.
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