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rolonrolon
Old 04-24-2006, 09:04 AM     Post subject: Ax UTG #1 (permalink)  

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I'm having alot of trouble with Ax in 6 max $1/2 limit.

Should I only be playing this hand on the button or can I raise with it UTG and UTG+1? If it is a tight table, I imagine it would be more correct to play Ax but a loose table not too. How loose/tight? Also, how much of a difference does it make if its suited or not?

Thanks for the thoughts.
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midas06
Old 04-24-2006, 09:45 AM #2 (permalink)  
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It's more suitable if it's a loose passive table, creating more dead money in the pot for you to draw to your flush.

Ax is MUCH better if it's suited.

It's probably not a good idea to raise it in early position.

In 1/2 6max you don't really need to be making so many raises with such a small edge pf such as Ax. However, if you do, make them from either the button or CO.
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chardrian
Old 04-24-2006, 04:05 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Are u advocating an open-limp with Ax from EP or a fold?

Although it depends on my table, I have just been dumping anything less than A8 from UTG or UTG+1 lately.
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midas06
Old 04-25-2006, 02:17 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Don't open limp in 6max. If you find yourself limping because you have loose passives behind you, find another table.

To be more exact, I'm advocating a fold of Ax from EP.

Chardrian, move to PP kthx
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-25-2006, 02:30 AM #5 (permalink)  
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well it really depends on your table if you should play any thing below A90 UTG and i's say A8s maybe... and that's a low end to some... I adjust this up or down depending on what my table is doing and my current image...

but a rule of thumb I wouldn't open limp UTG with any Ax and I wouldn't play any Ax below A9s/o... this might be contradicted by some other 6 max players which is cool, I’m more spur of the moment read type guy myself...

I have raised as little as A6s UTG before (not suggest), and I have folded A9 UTG as well and only played ATo/s+...

The hard thing about giving advice in 6max IMO is the fact 6max is so fluent and always changing... you really need to be able to switch gears...

I might play say A7s UTG for a raise at one point when my image is tight and they respect me too much, and fold A90 UTG if my image is shit and I’ll get 4 cold callers...

Just depends a lot about the current situation you are in at the table... IMO
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 04-25-2006, 02:47 AM #6 (permalink)  
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i believe there are a handful of players from 2+2 that think raising UTG with A2s is "standard"
 
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-25-2006, 02:54 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
i believe there are a handful of players from 2+2 that think raising UTG with A2s is "standard"
hahaha, and they are winning players doing this? That sounds like they run something like 40/20... I guess with a correct post flop game it is doable but i wouldn't even try it... I’d like to see EV speculation on raising A2s UTG and if you get cold called or 3 bet where you stand... however some of the 2+2 guys don't know dick about table selection, I see these guys that are 25/16 lets say at a table where they have a 80/20 directly to there left and at tables with 0 fish... it's just bad...

I don’t know about raising A2s UTG PROVE IT IS +EV

It might be +EV against tight players because you have the opportunity to pick up the blinds sometimes, but against bad loose players you MIGHT break even it will surly add a ton of variance to your game though…
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elipsesjeff
Old 04-25-2006, 04:42 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
i believe there are a handful of players from 2+2 that think raising UTG with A2s is "standard"
Its possible, on the right tables with the right tighties on your left. Considering most 2+2ers dont use table or seat selection (from my experience even at the 10/20 game) this play would not be beneficial. However, Even I sometimes open with A5o...


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thenonsequitur
Old 04-25-2006, 07:32 AM #9 (permalink)  
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I can see someone that advocates open-raising A2s UTG as being a winning player if they play well post flop. They are just not winning as much if they just folded that crap to start with.

To be clear, I think it is a -EV play to openraise A2s UTG, but conceivable that a player advocating it might also be making enough +EV plays to overall turn a profit. And I'm sure their loose-aggressive image helps them get paid off on their better hands.

As far as the OP's question, I think pokerfanatic summed up exactly my thoughts on it, so I don't have anything to add really.
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Miffed22001
Old 04-25-2006, 10:27 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 god i hate ATo and <A9
but...
id rather open UTg with 23s than A9o
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-25-2006, 12:54 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
god i hate ATo and <A9
but...
Id rather open UTG with 23s than A9o
No offence but that has to be the worst thing I have heard yet... and here is why:

I'll run 23s and A9o against a random hand (of course a cold calling hand or 3 beating hand is not random it's a lot less hands) however you will get my point with a random hand as well...

32s:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1:
35.9844 % 33.09% 02.89% { 32s }

Hand 2:
64.0156 % 61.12% 02.89% { random }

A9o:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1:
60.7728 % 59.45% 01.32% { A9o }

Hand 2:
39.2272 % 37.90% 01.32% { random }

Now why in the hell would you raise 32s UTG over A9o... seriously hope you are kidding...

If your not you need to send me a chunk of hands to look over my god because you have to be loosing at 6max…
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Miffed22001
Old 04-25-2006, 01:25 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
god i hate ATo and <A9
but...
Id rather open UTG with 23s than A9o
No offence but that has to be the worst thing I have heard yet... and here is why:

I'll run 23s and A9o against a random hand (of course a cold calling hand or 3 beating hand is not random it's a lot less hands) however you will get my point with a random hand as well...

32s:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1:
35.9844 % 33.09% 02.89% { 32s }

Hand 2:
64.0156 % 61.12% 02.89% { random }

A9o:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1:
60.7728 % 59.45% 01.32% { A9o }

Hand 2:
39.2272 % 37.90% 01.32% { random }

Now why in the hell would you raise 32s UTG over A9o... seriously hope you are kidding...

If your not you need to send me a chunk of hands to look over my god because you have to be loosing at 6max…
Adds sarcasm tags to last post.
It was a note to the problems of playing crappy aces in general and oop specifically. It sucks but has to be done.
As a rule i open with A90 utg and just about any Axs too so long as table texture allows.
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chardrian
Old 04-25-2006, 05:58 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midas06
Don't open limp in 6max. If you find yourself limping because you have loose passives behind you, find another table.

To be more exact, I'm advocating a fold of Ax from EP.

Chardrian, move to PP kthx
Ok that's what I thought/hoped.

Why does everyone suggest party?

Maybe it's a stupid fear, but I have put a roll on party twice before and lost it both times. At this point (since it was a while ago) I have no idea if it was because I got sucked out on by fish or if it was because I sucked - I tend to think it had more to do with the latter. But anyways... I still have an aversion to Party.

I also am used to 5 max at Dise. I know one more player doesn't sound like it should be a huge difference, but it is.

A2s is a standard open-rise for me UTG. I have a feeling it's because I am used to 5 max and not 6 max tho.

I can tell you at 5 max at a "no read" table - my UTG standard raises are 22-AA; A2s+; A8o+; JKs; QK. Hands like TJs+, JKo, etc. will often also get a raise depending on how loose/tight my opps are preflop and how weak/aggro they are post flop.

I still don't have poker tracker since I am sticking at Dise at the moment, but my standard flop percentage is usually between 30-35% (my VPIP would be a little lower since there are many times I get to play my BigBlinds for free).
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elipsesjeff
Old 04-25-2006, 06:09 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chardrian
Maybe it's a stupid fear, but I have put a roll on party twice before and lost it both times. At this point (since it was a while ago) I have no idea if it was because I got sucked out on by fish or if it was because I sucked - I tend to think it had more to do with the latter. But anyways... I still have an aversion to Party.

I also am used to 5 max at Dise. I know one more player doesn't sound like it should be a huge difference, but it is.

A2s is a standard open-rise for me UTG. I have a feeling it's because I am used to 5 max and not 6 max tho.

I can tell you at 5 max at a "no read" table - my UTG standard raises are 22-AA; A2s+; A8o+; JKs; QK. Hands like TJs+, JKo, etc. will often also get a raise depending on how loose/tight my opps are preflop and how weak/aggro they are post flop.
I hope you realize the many things wrong that you said.

1) You're afraid to putting money into party poker because you're afraid of getting sucked out on? What kind of thinking is this? It comes a point where you like getting sucked out on by bad players because thats where the action comes from.

2) Party Poker is where the action is. They have more tables at 6 max than any other site, which leads to better table and seat selection which will only increase your profits. Oh, they use Poker Tracker btw.

3) I avoid hands that have a 2 and/or a 3 in them. Including 22, 33 and A2s and A3s. They play horribly and 22 or 33 isnt even a coinflip HU. At a no-read table where you have no idea what position you are in, these are auto-folds.

IMO, your attitude is rather poor concerning poker tracker, table selection, seat selection and even site selection.


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chardrian
Old 04-25-2006, 07:06 PM #15 (permalink)  
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I realize I have loads of leaks - I'm always trying to patch em up.

I do realize that my table selection/seat selection etc. is non-existent right now since I don't have Poker Tracker and that's a huge leak.

I do realize that my fear of Party is stupid as I do actively look for fish and sorta am liking bad beats now because I now I'll get the money back later.

And I am starting to realize that PPs 55- are not so hot in limit even 5 handed. I overvalue them because so many pots 5 handed end up heads up and guys will call anything preflop and flop.

I am gearing up to finally make the switch - but new things are hard for old farts like me.

How big of a difference in play do you think 6 max will be compared to 5 max?

Clearly I will need to tighten up my starting hand reqs - A9o+; A6s+; 66+; JKs, QK - sound like a reasonable starting range at 6 max for a guy testing the waters?
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elipsesjeff
Old 04-25-2006, 08:22 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 The hands are more dependant on position than any chart I could give you. i've raised T7s or A5o to isolate on the button on one table but folded it on another. Really, it comes from getting experience and working out your own game. Really, 6 max isn't too much different from 5 max, as many games still get 5 or even 4 handed.


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Miffed22001
Old 04-26-2006, 01:48 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 oddly enough i have difficulties with 5 max in compariosn to 6max, NL ring games too. However dise has always been so soft for full ring games anyway.
But i took the advice around here char and theyre right so i guess its worth a look.
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chardrian
Old 04-26-2006, 06:45 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Yes I know.

I finally got pokertracker last night. And I am in the process of moving my limit roll over to Party.

I think I'll be posting more and more here as I will have tons of pokertracker questions I am sure.
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midas06
Old 04-27-2006, 02:39 AM #19 (permalink)  
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fasin8ing
Old 04-27-2006, 06:51 PM #20 (permalink)  
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In everyones own opinion -

Out of all the hands you could be dealt in poker - What ranking is A10 suited all the way down to A 2 suited? Not like a group A , group B shit.... Like A A is the 1st , K K is the second.. and so forth.

I think it kinda matters Rolon what you are trying to do with Ax. You have enough discipline to raise UTG with Ax suited and a Ace falls on the flop to lay it down to agression? If you say Iam only playing suited Aces, its good for FD's only. Test your luck if youd like... Someone with throw down A better Kicker when you try to get cute with A 5 or whatever Ace rag you have. Dude, those hurt bad.... especially if you think your ahead and your not. I cant comment on Ax really 6 max or not... I dont play Ax unless its suited and Iam in LP. As far as the table as a whole, thats a contradicting statement. Playing Ax is loosing up your starting hand requirements therefore making you loose. If you are at a tight table, why would you wanna play A junk from any postion? If you wanna play somewhat LAGG against a tight table the last hands I would wanna be playing is A rag in EP.
 
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