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| Schoolaments |
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PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) Preflop: Hero is UTG with A  , T. Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls. Flop: (7.40 SB) Q , A , 7 (3 players)Hero checks, MP1 bets, Button calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, Button calls. Turn: (6.70 BB) T (3 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button folds. River: (8.70 BB) 2  (2 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls. Final Pot: 10.70 BB |
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| euphoricism |
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| c/c flop, c/r turn. Dont limp UTG. | |||
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| bigspenda73 |
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What can you really do with a hand like ATs UTG 8 handed though? I don't particularly hate limping here as we have a drawy hand with a bit of high card strenghth. I think raising this hand only gets action against hands that are considerably better than ours and we will be OOP the whole way except against the blinds. I guess what I'm trying to say is Im torn between limping and folding PF. C/Raising this flop is kinda silly and really serves little purpose. I like c/r the turn if we believe MP1 will fire again. |
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| euphoricism |
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Quote:
If youre solid postflop, raise. If youre not, fold and get better postflop asap. |
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| NWNewell |
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I rarely like to limp UTG, but this is one of the few hands I don't mind in the right situation. This hand preflop is totally table dependent for me. I'm raising a tight/passive table, limping a loose/passive table. I'd like to play postflop poker against one or two opponents. But if the table is loose, I'm looking to get in cheap and try to hit big. Also, if the table is pretty aggressive behind me, I would fold it. I don't want to play something like a 3-way pot against a raiser that has position on me with this hand. If I can see this coming, I'd rather pass on this one. |
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My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
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| Prolaznik |
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Limping UTG is some kind of a gambling. It certainly there are tables worth that kind of gambling, you played at this table - you know the best... I'd check/raise on flop if my right player (in this case - button) bets, but check/call if my left player bets. I like your bet on turn. C/r is risky: 1) If he is weaker than you, he can check behind 2) If he has a flush, he'll bet and reraise |
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| Ragnar4 |
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1) Where I play limit $3/6 we call ATo the Nemesis. We call ATs Nemesis lite. The reason? It seems every time you get into it with Nemesis, one or two other yahoo' is calling you with hands that very well shouldn't be getting into it. It always feels like the only card you can catch and not be in a tough situation is the Ace, and even then, what if some jerkoff from late position called you with AJo A legit calling hand from late position. What if you catch your ten? Well there are overs you have to worry about, and the lower the cards, the more likely they are tightly grouped, and the more likely some yahoo caught two pair. Some people have gone so far as to shed Ace Ten until Middle position. Their game improved. One person has gone so far as to eliminate AT from her hand requirements unless she's stealing with it from the Button or Button -1. Her game sucks all around, but she loses much less money with it. That having been said. Be careful with AT. Its Dirty. While I agree with Euph and NwNewell and think that it's a mighty fine way to play it, I like the idea of confronting on the flop here. Put in the first raise, and own the last. Here's the trick: If you bet into the field, and someone raises you, your re-raise here, even if your behind Can A) Put the fear into them, "Maybe my 2 pair isn't good", or "Could he have flopped a set?" You may show down for free on the more expensive streets. B) Buy you outs. Maybe your T completed a straight, or the heart completed a flush. You bet, and he raises, the other players won't be getting the right price to call those odds. If he just flat calls, you can put him on a Q or a weaker Ace. Maybe even a flush draw. If you get into a pissing match and cap it on the flop, check to him on the turn, and if he bets, strongly consider letting go. Each bet is a new layer of information. Capping on the flop and letting go on the turn costs 2 BB. Check calling all the way down costs 2.5 BB. Save yourself 1/2 a BB by being aggressive. You'll also be more likely to win the pot because your the one putting him to the test. |
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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| pokerfanatic |
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I HATE limping UTG it BLOWS ASS!!! if you play in EP raise in EP... you will have a stronger knowledge of hand ranges if people cold call or raise... if you raise here you probably go HU to the flop unless other limper is a real donk and cold calls a lot... but i don't have anyreads other then this hand... and PF i don't know shit about him i'm OOP... buttons hand: I have a lot larger button raise with 2 limpers in there to isolate them and force blinds for more money if they want to play, then if i would have 3 bet then i have a true hand i wouldn't be getting cute, unless you the original raiser is a maniac... which you are not i'm guessing... however, since you didn't raise hand plays a lot diff. On the flop check is fine, MP1 donks into the PFR makes for an interesting wth? type of play... because it seems that MP1 is a donk, I have to put him on some sort of weak ace... So c/c here is not a horrible play... I figure with buttons call he has something like KQ, QJ maybe KJ... but i think AK, AQ, AJ raise MP1 there... even though it does nothing if you do have a draw... he wants to get money ITP while ahead... So if you call I’m guessing that MP1 would bet again hopefully button calls and now you c/r... river is a bet... |
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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| limping preflop is fine. you're playing for flush value, nothing else. you have horrible position, so it will be difficult to protect your hand with a bet out on the flop, or a check raise (like what happened here, you gave everyone great odds). | |||
  
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| pokerfanatic |
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Quote:
I would have raised it UTG, this is long winded… Figuring that if I due hit my FD then they prob. wont put me on the draw as much had I limped and now I’m leading out or c/r the flop est... if you get 3bet you figure your probably behind, if you get cold called you figure you're probably ahead, it really tells you exactly where you are in the hand IMO... plus if you due happen to hit the draw you are looking for you might get some guy raising your lead with the best hand currently building a pot for you... or even if he played it correctly by calling and popping the turn to help protect his hand you still build a pot on the draw... I guess my thinking here is you gain more information at the same time putting the pot at a bigger size for when you do hit... so say you raised PF here, you get MP1 cold calling and Button 3 bets... you figure that button is ahead of you and you are ahead of MP1... you call taking a flop MP1 calls, that's 9sb w/o rake... flop comes what it did... you check MP1 leads into the PF 3 bettor who calls, now you know that he has an under pair to the Ace it's obvious, you can also figure MP1 for a weaker Ace, thus making a call waiting for the turn to pounce knowing you have the best hand... turn comes a T you check hopefully MP1 bets again, hopefully button makes a call like a dumb ass... you c/r and all is great... Or if you hit the FD now you could probably lead out figuring MP1 calls, and button raises playing into your hand perfectly... to build up the pot more... Once you have hit you will have the odds to peal almost everything to the turn regardless... if you hit a FD you got 9 outs 4.1:1... If you completely missed, then you spend a whopping 2sb or 3sb pf to try and win a much larger pot when you do happen to hit... you flop a FD about 11%, you hit an Ace and a T about 2%... hitting a T (which might not be clean but if you hit an ace it will be or visa versa) is about 27% (represents one pair no matter what it is)... so you have a total of 41% to catch SOMETHING... Once you have hit you will have the odds to peal almost everything to the turn regardless... If you hit a FD you got 9 outs 4.1:1... If you hit an Ace think it's no good you got 3 outs 14.3:1 (this is the exception unless you figure your implied odds make up for 4sb which is 2bb so it might)... If you hit the T and think he has an over pair your Ace is clean, of course you might only have 2 outs there with that plus another T is good... so that about 4.5 outs 9.2:1 odds which you have... when you brink completely you fold losing 3bb pf assuming he 3sb it... You flop the nut straight about 0.4%, You flop a GSD with a FD about 0.4% (well round 0.8% up to 1%) roughly That brings you to 41% total to hit SOMETHING… You might not have the best hand right at the moment but that's why we want a big pot to off set the EV scale to our favor... So 59% the time you lose 3sb... (you just c/f the flop) 11% you hit a FD and have correct odds to make a +EV plays in drawing... and winning much larger pots when you hit, increasing you win rate a little... Flopping TP is about 2% and you'll be ahead must the time... +EV in big pot too... 27% the time you flop a T, and even if you are behind you have odds to play and it be +EV in this pot... 27% the time, worst case is if you hit the Ace and then you have to hope that someone over plays AK, AJ, Q7... you are screwed to a set and AQ... Given the flop we are looking at in this hand for example: Perks: if worst case did happen... you run the same check line on flop MP1 leads still then you know he has Ax majority the time sometimes A7) button calls you put him on a pair that's not a set probably... unless he is smart then he'll be sitting on a set or AQ, or even AK for that matter... when you hit your FD you lead out hope button raises yu playing into you hand putting in another 6sb into a 9sb pot giving you a 7.5bb pot going to the turn... you brick the draw you c/c, you hit you could probably lead again because the FD might scare him into not beating... hopefully you get at least one caller if not you win the pot... not a big deal it's already large... if you missed you spend an extra 1bb so 4 times you lose 3.5bb one time you win at the min 7.5 to max of (assuming someone hit a smaller flush and caps both streets with you) 23.5 bb (this doesn't include a 3rd person in for the ride)... figure on avg. you make 10-14bb on it when you hit... 14bb would be break even for this play on the FD ALONE... not including all the times you win with all the other stuff... my point is here that... I think even though it's majority drawing hand raising it PF can really open up some doors and give you more opportunities to take down pots, which in return will increase your win rate... Downfall: you gave a FD, great odds but you were playing for odds yourself right? that's the only downfall really is when a different draw hits that you don't have... might be an argument for the FD not getting enough money or something per missed hand... this is a long term game what matters is if you gain on the over all play... I think that a lot of you are focusing too much on "we play this hand for a FD..." true, HOWEVER you need to calculate in the other hands you will occasionally take down the pot with when you missed the FD... If button cold calls then you might just have the best hand to start with! Nothing wrong with that raise in this case... I guess that's my long winded argument for raising this hand PF even in FR... It's a no brainier to me in 6m... Poker IS gambling short term, we make plays based on risk v reword… simple example… why do we lead out in EP into a button raiser with one or more players in the middle on a FD? We know we are going to get called and maybe raised… we do it so we have odds if we missed our draw on the turn to see the river with a +EV situation, if we hit the turn then we have the nuts anyways and our gambling paid off already… From what I can see is that this WILL increase variance some, but it will also increase winrate some… so I guess it’s a trade off… unless my thinking is totally fucked which I don’t think it is… and I’ll happily run hand ranges though poker stove if you want and calculate the play out and figure out if it truly does help your winrate, or if it just increases swings… and does nothing to your winrate… because it’s more about long term winrate then short term wins and loses… Anyways… that was my thought on raising that hand PF… guess lil more detailed then need be but good to think about… |
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| mike4066 |
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ahh another pkr fanatic post thats too long for my attention span  I agree with euphs first post . |
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| euphoricism |
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| Christ fanatic. Wow. | |||
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<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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ugh...i only made it until the 3rd paragraph. anyways, with a hand like ATs UTG at full ring, i think the difference between folding/limping/raising are so close that it'd be hard pressed to come to any conclusion. raising preflop is more for metagame than anything else methinks. |
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| pokerfanatic |
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| haha i told you all it was going to be long it just has a lot of situational crap in it... tried covering any possible situation to the fullest... ohh well... | |||
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~ "God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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| Coolidge |
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| I raise preflop, but limping isn't that bad. I C/C flop and CR the turn. | |||
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| bigspenda73 |
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Didn't OP ended up being a huge douchebag in BBV on 2+2? Like someone asked him to finish a tourney on their account cuz they couldn't access it and he dumped the money into his account cuz he had gone busto. |
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| Chopper |
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i think it was mentioned...prolly in the fanatic marathon (wow, btw, goot stuff). but, why did we c/r the flop, with THAT texture? and in THAT position? we have been covering this a lot lately, but isnt that bloating the pot for the hearts, instead of sending the intended message? they've already called one sb, no one is going anywhere for another. different story if you can get a raise in before everyone has had the chance to act, but that wasnt the case here. and, for the record, i limp here, too. i am only playing this for the flush/straight. unless, i hit AAT. 
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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Chopper just b/c someone can call correctly doesn't change the fact that we still carry more equity in the pot than they do. That is a really important idea you will need to understand. |
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| Chopper |
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so, if you have the set i understand, but 2 pair into 3 players...both of whom are interested from the flop? havent stoved it yet, but how great is our equity vs. the chance the flush hits? i understand there are situations like TP w/ the nut redraw, etc. but, two pair is usually ahead but oh so vulnerable that it seems that pot control would be in better order. sorry to sound dumb, but i am obviously trying to learn the sweetness of limit, and need to expose my ignorance to learn. i'm just surprised i am so willing to look so dumb. lol. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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chopper, this is limit, pot control does not matter dude If you have 40% equity in a 3way pot you should be betting dude even if they are correct to call. |
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| Chopper |
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so, if you have my favorite KQo, the pot is 3-way, and you hit a flop of Kx 5s 7s, you are not interested in pot control? dont you check/raise, or check through here and wait until the turn, to take away odds to draw? that sounds like the textbook definition of pot control, to me. and its pretty important in a limit game to protect this hand by controlling the pot, yes? |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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| Once a pot gets multiway it is rare that you can cause someone to call incorrectly with an 8+ out draw considering implied odds especially b/c the bet doubles after the flop making implied odds on the flop huge. | |||
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| bigspenda73 |
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| Stop worrying so much about if they are drawing with correct odds and make sure you get as much money as you can in the pot while you are ahead. | |||
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| Chopper |
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Quote:
every hand you recommend i bet when i have it, and fold when i dont. and not get so caught up in all the thinking. abc poker at its finest, i guess. and i see the point you are making. thanks. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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Quote:
At your level chopper you don't even need the C, hell AB poker will do just fine. Grind out some bonus/rb and move up. |
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| Chopper |
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i'm in US. playing for bonuses is virtually non-existent where i like to play. well, can, for that matter. and rb is pretty tough, too. i dont want to re-register at ftp, and cant get any damned money into battlefield. ub sucks. and stars wont offer a standard rb program. and, obviously, limit requires rb. i looked at my database. i am a 2.14 BB/hr player through 15k hands. not bad, since i multi-table. it really should be around 7-8, though since i play 3-4 tables most times. but at least its positive, but with this sample, who the hell knows yet? all this is is a semi-decent start. however, i noticed i am up only $8. was as high as $22, but have fallen off the pace. i started on a huge heater, and came off it quickly, now holding steady for last 8k hands or so. but anyway, i have paid over $100 in rake!! put me at the top winnings, i have $22. add 30% rb, and i got $50ish. house still has that in rake...off just me. wow, house never loses...but we all knew that one...
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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| whats ur roll if you don't mind saying? | |||
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| Chopper |
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well over a grand. i like to play WAY underneath myself. this is a hobby, and i like to have the "cushion" if i need to withdraw some for whatever reason. and i like to play down low, where i know i can beat these turkeys, but still play my "experimental" hands...and learn something, too. dont get me wrong, i take my shots up at 50 NL on occasion, but i have found it so much tougher the past year...i dont enjoy playing up there anymore. not that you asked for all that. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| bigspenda73 |
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omg at least play 1/2 dude. You may or may not realize it but the rake is killlllling you until you get to 2/4. |
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| Chopper |
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oh baby, do i realize it. i mentioned it to you in another post i think. and i used to be at 1/2, when i was also at 100 NL. but i got used to playing down lower after US regs. and lost all i gained at 1/2, then coolered/stupid at .50/1, then i also started losing at .25/.50 after absloutely crushing that game before. long story. now i dont want to move off it until i have enough hands to confidentally say i am beating it. i am close, but not quite there. |
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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| Oscar_Bubb |
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Hey guys, new to the site. Just read some great threads on limit in the short time I've been here, this is probably the wrong place to ask this... but.. How are you guys in the US and Canada playing at Party? I also "used" to love playing there but since the ban haven't figured a way back in. I noticed a couple of you guys the posted videos are in the US and was hoping you could shed some light? Thanks in advance, great site you guys have here! |
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| bigspenda73 |
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Everything was pre-legislation on Party if you are American. Welcome, post some HH's. |
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| |~|ypermegachi |
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| Fnord |
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| Latest Poker News | |
| KoRnholio |
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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| According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... | |
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