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AQs flopping two pair, did i get as much as i could?

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Pokerella

04-24-2006, 08:04 PM Post subject: AQs flopping two pair, did i get as much as i could?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2006

Posts: 8

Hi! This is my first post on FTP. I've been lurking around to site for a while trying to do my homework before i started to lay real money on the tables. I would like to say that so far I really like this site and the people hear all seam great. (My English isn't great, it's my second language so feel free to correct me

)

What do you think? Did I play this right or wrong? Could I've gotten more bets from them or was i lucky it held up at all?

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is SB with A

2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2, folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: A

(6.2SB, 5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

Turn: 5

(7.6BB, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: 6

(13.6BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Results:
Final pot: 17.6BB
Hero shows Ac Qc
Hero mucks Ac Qc

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euphoricism

04-24-2006, 09:02 PM

#2 (permalink)

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No need to threebet the river. Youre beat by a lot there.

Other than that, yes, perfectly played.

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outphase

04-24-2006, 09:06 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

No need to threebet the river. Youre beat by a lot there.

Other than that, yes, perfectly played.

PFR into huge field + top 2 + draw heavy + check flop = perfect?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

themandude

04-24-2006, 09:09 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 22

Well I assume he hit his 3rd six and beat you with trips, so the extra aggression on the end isn't nessisary. On the flop you slow played generally that's ok, but with that man people in the hand and 2 hearts on the board, I wouldn't slow play, I would come out betting, to make the chasers pay.

Xanadu

04-24-2006, 11:41 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Location: st. paul, MO

Posts: 966

Yes, don't check that flop. Having it check around is a disaster.

spoonitnow

04-25-2006, 01:49 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: 5,406

Take into consideration I'm still pretty new to LHE, and I'm typing this based on my current level of understanding. Please comment/discuss errors in my analysis.

I'm not so sure checking the flop is such a bad play, even if it does check around. In the case it does check around, and a non-heart hits on the turn, then you can lead out protecting your hand with 1 to 3.1 odds when a 9 out draw needs 1 to 4.1 to continue. In the case someone bets, we raise, forcing all the draws to commit to at least 2 bets instead of just 1. Yes, you are giving opponents the opportunity to draw out on you for free on the turn if it checks around, but there's not a lot you can do about giving them bad odds for their draws as first to act if you lead out with a bet.

After the action on the flop as played, I think the check-raise on the turn is play. CO is last to act this hand, and the 5d doesn't help any legitimate hand, so you have no reason to believe that it won't check to the CO, who will bet, then you can immediately check-raise to offer 1 to 5.3 pot odds to the flush draw. Yes, this means they can still call, but it's less of a disadvantage than leading out and giving them 1 to 8.6.

Finally, I check-call the river. That's the worst scare card possible here, as it fills the flush draw and puts a pair on board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

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Miffed22001

04-25-2006, 02:06 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

Quote:

Yes, don't check that flop. Having it check around is a disaster.

Quote:

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players

How often does the above happen in these stakes? Theres an ace out there and we scared only of a set and probably going to a 20bbs+ showdown against such a hand anyway in a multiway pot.
Eupho has it right imo.
Opening the betting into this pot when its pretty obvious someone behind is going to bet anyway is pretty horrible considering how many will call with any part of the pot because of the pot odds.
River sucks btw, check-call.

Nehmer

04-25-2006, 02:07 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Location: Decatur, IL

Posts: 666

This is a very dangerous two pair to be holding in a big pot like this. You have a flush draw and various straight draws from hands like KJ/KT/TJ that you want to make pay for their draws. With this in mind, I am definately just betting out on the flop and hoping somebody else with an ace raises it so I can 3-bet the flop. Given the fact that you did check the flop, I think you should 3-bet when it comes back around to you. With a pot that is already big preflop, you shouldn't be worrying about winning the most with your hand, but instead worrying about making sure you win the pot at all.

elipsesjeff

04-25-2006, 02:35 AM

#9 (permalink)

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I agree 100% with Nehmer. Two pair isnt something to slowplay on this board.

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outphase

04-25-2006, 03:43 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

Anyone else find it strangely funny how the only person who folded the flop was the one who bet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

thenonsequitur

04-25-2006, 07:03 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: 637

Quote:

Originally Posted by outphase

Anyone else find it strangely funny how the only person who folded the flop was the one who bet?

Haha, I didn't notice that. I love when my opponents make plays that don't make any sense at all.

Regarding the topic at hand, I believe that with such a draw-heavy board you'd be shooting yourself in the foot by leading out on the flop. I think a check/raise is in order to protect your hand (a check/3-bet is even better when possible, like here). Having it checked behind would be a disaster, but I think there's very little chance of that happening. Basically for the flop and turn play I'm advocating the same line as spoonitnow for the same reasons, and I like his detailed analysis.

I bet/call the river. It gets checked behind too often to miss out on value by checking, but when he raises you're probably behind and should just call.

Pokerella, welcome to FTR, and congrats on posting a good discussion hand as your very first post. My first post here was something along the lines of "64 is usually a good hand, right? And what does position mean?". So you're off to a good start.

euphoricism

04-25-2006, 10:14 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Ugh.

I've gotta get better at reading these HHs. No, not perfect.

Lead out. Lead out. Lead out.

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thenonsequitur

04-25-2006, 05:33 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Someone that thinks leading out is the right line here, please explain why you think that trying to checkraise for protection is not a good idea here. It seems that with 5 players in the pot, a checkraise will likely eliminate one, maybe two players. I just don't see how leading out is a good idea.

Is it that leading out is just as likely or more likely to protect your hand than checkraising is?

Is that you are unlikely to eliminate people with a checkraise in a pot this big?

Is it that even though it's checked through rarely, you can't afford to miss out on value and give free cards those times?

All of these seem like potentially good points, but I don't fully buy any of them.

elipsesjeff

04-25-2006, 05:58 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Is this converter off with the size of the pot? I calculate the end pot being 21 BB and the pot on the flop should be 10 sb.

With a 10 sb pot going into the flop, it doesn't matter what you do you aren't going to be able to protect your hand, as any gutshot will have odds to call even two cold. I am pumping my top two pair on this flop for value more than anything. Any Ace is going to call and they are all drawing dead and you might even be able to get a 3bet in too.

The way he played it he slowplayed a hand that shouldn't have been slowplayed.

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Pokerella

04-26-2006, 07:08 PM

#15 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2006

Posts: 8

The end result of this hand actually was me coming out topside and taking down this pot. But that's why i posted it in the first place because I wasn't sure i played it right or just got lucky. This was the only hand i hit that evening so i think that's why i tried to "slowplay" it to max my profits when i had the opportunity. Which I see now wasn't that smart at all

My first mini tilt i guess.

I posted the same hand at a different forum and the consensus there was to lead out, lead out, lead out. Not discussing the benefit of check-raising at all.

Now i would probably play this hand raising pre-flop, check-raising the flop, leading out on the turn and either bet-call the river or check-call. This guy seemed pretty soft and had been in on third of the hand while I was sitting at the table. Which argument makes the most valid point of protecting the two-pair on the flop. Betting out or check-raising (not worrying about it being checked around)?

This was i good first lesson i think. Thanks to you all!

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenonsequitur

Pokerella, welcome to FTR, and congrats on posting a good discussion hand as your very first post. My first post here was something along the lines of "64 is usually a good hand, right? And what does position mean?". So you're off to a good start.

Thanks! It doesn't seem hard at all to feel welcome at this site

Fnord

04-30-2006, 12:22 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerella

I posted the same hand at a different forum and the consensus there was to lead out, lead out, lead out. Not discussing the benefit of check-raising at all.

In a live game where people like to bet all kinds of crap but don't like to raise, I can see screwing around with a c/r. Online I'm betting this flop almost always because weaker hands are raising and I want to 3-bet and build a pot with other hands in there drawing thin (or push them out, either way I'm happy.)

The river 3-bet is silly. People tend to be tight with river raises and a fair number of hands sucked out or had you all the way.

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