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Anything wrong with my play on the followin hand?

  
 
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littleogre
Old 04-05-2006, 11:33 AM     Post subject: Anything wrong with my play on the followin hand? #1 (permalink)  

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Posts: 1,344
littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 I will reply latter to give ne reasoning as to why i played the hand the way that i did.

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) littleogre is BB with
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, littleogre checks.

Flop: (5SB, 5 players)
SB bets, littleogre raises, 3 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (3.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, littleogre raises, SB calls.

River: (6.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, littleogre calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.5BB
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littleogre
Old 04-05-2006, 11:40 AM #2 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Ok it showed up kinda funky. Doesn't it usually give the name of the players in the pot aswell as what cards i had or any cards at all for that matter? Does anyone have any idea what i did wrong? I copied the hand history from pt then pasted it into the converter. I then pasted the code to here erasing the results.
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littleogre
Old 04-05-2006, 11:46 AM #3 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) littleogre is BB with 6 Q
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, littleogre checks.

Flop: Q 4 3 (5SB, 5 players)
SB bets, littleogre raises, 3 folds, SB calls.

Turn: 3 (3.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, littleogre raises, SB calls.

River: 6 (6.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, littleogre calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.5BB
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littleogre
Old 04-05-2006, 11:56 AM #4 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Ok for some reason when i tried to erase the results it messed the entire hand up. Anyway i am mainly concerned about my play on the turn and river but any constructive comments are welcome.
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midas06
Old 04-05-2006, 12:02 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I might slow down after he donks the turn. Stats on the SB?
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littleogre
Old 04-05-2006, 12:29 PM #6 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Ok i hate to ask such a silly question but can anybody else see the results of the hand? It doesn't show up on my screen. Everything else showed up just fine.
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midas06
Old 04-05-2006, 12:43 PM #7 (permalink)  
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No, no results
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StinkyBeaver
Old 04-05-2006, 12:45 PM #8 (permalink)  
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What do you put him on, on turn that makes you wanna raise this..?

If he has a Q your beat if he has a trey your beat..?

I would have prefered calling turn and raise/fold to a 3 bet on the river after your kicker hits.
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RonBurgundy
Old 04-05-2006, 01:14 PM #9 (permalink)  

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why not call the turn and call the river? why do you want to raise him and then fold on the river for the 3 bet??

i think the guy doesn't have a three, because he bets out on the flop with low pair with 4 other players in it and yet to act. Also on the turn, he would definately 3 bet?

i think i might fold to his turn bet because i think he has at least a better Q.. or i might call down if i have a read on him..
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StinkyBeaver
Old 04-05-2006, 02:50 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I wanna call turn and raise river because I don't think he ever 3bets the river without a 3 or the flush
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RonBurgundy
Old 04-05-2006, 03:04 PM #11 (permalink)  

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but it will cost you less to see a showdown, don't you want to see a showdown?

in your scenario, if you are behind you lose 3 bets, if you are ahead you win 3 and sometimes two, if he folds to your raise.

in the other scenario (calling down) you lose 2 bets if you are behind and you win 2 bets if you are ahead.
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littleogre
Old 04-05-2006, 05:56 PM #12 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Ok i'm to tired to explain myself as far as my play is concerned. Not trying to be rude just been up a long time. I'll just say that after he called my raise i put him on one of 2 hands

1 a flush draw
2 a paired queen

So i'm either ahead versus a draw or behind versus a better kicker. I was gona give the results but i'll let you guys see if you can figure out what they had. It may or may not be 1 of the 2 hands that i guessed on the turn.
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littleogre
Old 04-05-2006, 05:58 PM #13 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Also ty to everyone that has taken the time to reply.
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thenonsequitur
Old 04-05-2006, 06:32 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleogre
i'll let you guys see if you can figure out what they had.
I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see him showdown A4.
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ihategnomes
Old 04-05-2006, 07:28 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Im not raising that turn.
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arkitekton
Old 04-06-2006, 11:53 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Guess I'm the only one who folds on the flop, though I don't have strong objections to raising. Once he bets into me on the turn, I'm folding. I'm either looking at a nut (the bettor), or 3 outs. This is read-dependent, to be sure, but I'm pretty sure I'm badly beaten at this point. If I've arrived at the river under the actual circumstances, I'm raising. If I REALLY had to guess at what he's got, I'll put him on a persistent AQ or KQ, but his betting is obviously inconsistent. If he had two pair or better as of the turn card, I assume he would have reraised...
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elipsesjeff
Old 04-06-2006, 05:26 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkitekton
Guess I'm the only one who folds on the flop, though I don't have strong objections to raising. Once he bets into me on the turn, I'm folding. I'm either looking at a nut (the bettor), or 3 outs. This is read-dependent, to be sure, but I'm pretty sure I'm badly beaten at this point. If I've arrived at the river under the actual circumstances, I'm raising. If I REALLY had to guess at what he's got, I'll put him on a persistent AQ or KQ, but his betting is obviously inconsistent. If he had two pair or better as of the turn card, I assume he would have reraised...
Folding on the flop would be too weak tight, as any idiot is betting any pair/draw there to take the pot (and reasonably is correct to do so). Raising the flop would be the correct play.

Once he bets into me on the turn he could have hit a lot of holdings, all of which would believe me to say he has a better hand than mine. However, I'm not folding here as TP HU is still reasonably strong versus a random idiot who really could have any 2. But, I'm not raising here unless I'm sure I have him beat. Sometimes you just get the feeling that you are ahead (like raising the donk bet on all three streets with TPTK) but I don't get that feeling here.

The river is dependant on what your opponent has, I would probably raise here as you now beat a lot of the hands you put your opponent on. Folding to a 3 bet here would be pretty bad, and if you had to fold to a 3 bet then i wouldn't raise to begin with. The reason I dont like folding to a 3 bet is that the pot is now reasonably large and you have pretty good pot odds to make a crying call. Actually, the converter must be fucked up in this hand as the pot size is too small given the action, it should be 4.5 BB on the turn and 8.5 by the river and, given how I would have played it it would be 7.5 BB going into the river and a bet/3bet by the SB would give me approx 13-1 to make a crying call with top two pair.

A raise on the river probably won't get 3bet unless you are against a thinking opponent. Trip 3s would be afraid of the straight and the straight would be afraid of the boat so the raise would be good for value.


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littleogre
Old 04-06-2006, 05:47 PM #18 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Ok i doubt anybody will ever guess what his hand was

He had j/7 of diamonds

Once the diamond came out on the river i figured my chances of being infront were fairly slim as i put him on either a better queen or a flush draw all the way. So why did i call the river if i knew i was toast. Well frankly i think raising the turn then folding the river for 1 bet is weak poker and will invite people to pick on you. In the future i will probably just call the turn and either 2 bet or just call the river. Haven't really decided how i will play the river in that spot from now on.
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midas06
Old 04-06-2006, 08:59 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Yeah, pretty badly played draw by villain there
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arkitekton
Old 04-08-2006, 05:16 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Hmmm. You make several good points, elipsesjeff, though I think instead I'd characterize folding to the flop bet as "strong tight" rather than "weak tight." I don't mistake him for god, but Sklansky does write, regarding a very similar situation (HEPFAP, p. 65),

"But suppose you have flopped top pair, not aces or kings, and you have a weak kicker. (This usually happens when you get a "free" play in the big blind.) .... Against a large number of opponents you should check and perhaps fold especially if it is bet in early position and you have several players behind you yet to act."

Sklansky's analysis seems to fit littleogre's situation almost exactly. My own concern is at least as much for the players still to act as it is for the bettor, even as I agree that he could be betting a lot of hands other than top pair/better kicker.

My relative positiion on this hand is dreadful, and the pot is small. For what it's worth, my experience in these kinds of hands is that I have a slightly negative EV.

I do agree with you, that I (almost always) won't raise the river if I'm going to fold to a reraise, especially against your hypothetical thinking opponent, and now that the pot is a pretty good size, though I need to keep in mind there is the occasional player who won't reraise without the nuts...

Since littleogre filled us in on opps hand, I'd fault opp for betting a flush draw in first seat (he deserved to get raised, as it turned out), and I'm not sure whether he deserves praise for betting the turn brick and confusing the hell out of everyone, or jeers for betting the turn brick and confusing the hell out of everyone...

Strange hand, but good comments by all.
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-08-2006, 02:34 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleogre
Ok it showed up kinda funky. Doesn't it usually give the name of the players in the pot aswell as what cards i had or any cards at all for that matter? Does anyone have any idea what i did wrong? I copied the hand history from pt then pasted it into the converter. I then pasted the code to here erasing the results.
i got around to changing the orginal post if that helps anyone you have 2 ways to see the hand...
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