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Trikflow77
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03-09-2005, 05:24 AM
Post subject: Anyone think I should fold here????
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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This against the same person I called with King high on. He really does not like me.
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , K .
2 folds, MP1 calls, 3 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, MP1 folds, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.
Flop: (9 SB) J, 4, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.
Turn: (6.50 BB) J (2 players)
SB bets, Hero ?????
Given the fact that he just completed and the reraised me lead me to believe he had nothing.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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You're seeing showdown here. I would even consider checking behind on the flop if you know he's likely to check/raise and lead the turn reguardless.
Mike Caro talks about not betting hands like this into aggro/bluffy opponents, although 2+2 isn't as keen on the concept.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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i would have folded the flop check/raise.
I think his bet on the turn means he is not on the flush draw. My guess with his 3bet pre-flop is AJ, or QJs.
But, seeing as you posted it.... it's pobably something goofy.....
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
i would have folded the flop check/raise.
I think his bet on the turn means he is not on the flush draw. My guess with his 3bet pre-flop is AJ, or QJs.
But, seeing as you posted it.... it's pobably something goofy.....
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trip jacks wouldn't show their strength so soon
hero should be still drawing live
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
i would have folded the flop check/raise.
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At 12:1??? Are you that sure this bozo has AA/KK/44/Jx?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
I think his bet on the turn means he is not on the flush draw. My guess with his 3bet pre-flop is AJ, or QJs.
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His turn bet means he still has 2 cards.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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no way am i folding to his flop check raise. I was just wondering if anyone would fold the turn. BTW, I did go to showdown, i'll post the rest later.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Yeah, I'm really liking the flop check given the board and read. Although, I'm not sure I put enough together in the heat of battle and probably bet that flop too. I hope you rivered a King, raised the river, capped his 3-bet and laughed REALLY hard when he folded.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
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I bet the flop thinking if he called I get a cheap showdown. Didnt work out that way, but I couldnt really put him on much of a hand, I thought he was just trying to move me off mine.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
I bet the flop thinking if he called I get a cheap showdown. Didnt work out that way, but I couldnt really put him on much of a hand, I thought he was just trying to move me off mine.
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You can pull that shit off against the check/call crowd, the idiots that go nuts pre-flop then cool off or the 12/5 multi-tablers. Against the post-flop aggro players you're better off check/calling hands like this to lose the least when they have you beat and win the most when they make thier favorite mistake (bluffing too much.) After the pre-flop action he's check/raising this flop almost always and you don't have enough equity over his range of holdings to want to put more bets into the pot.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
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good point, in retrospect, it would be the cheapest way to showdown my hand.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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[quote="hypermegachi
trip jacks wouldn't show their strength so soon
hero should be still drawing live[/quote]
I agree, but this is same guy who just "completed" the SB, yet 3 bet and called the cap pre-flop. I am not saying he doesn' have the set after the flop, but if he does we can't assume much about how he'd play it based on his pre-flop play.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Arctic, this guy has a grudge against me, so deductive reasoning does not apply.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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[quote="Fnord"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
i would have folded the flop check/raise.
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Fnord wrote
Quote:
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At 12:1??? Are you that sure this bozo has AA/KK/44/Jx?
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At 12:1, yes, I'd fold. I have no info on this player.. I'm just taking what I see. I wouldn't have capped pre-flop with Akos, so it wouldn't be 12:1
Based on pre-flop he could be an idiot or he could be tricky/trappy.
The only thing trickflow said is that the guy hates him. So, maybe he doesn't want trickflow to fold his BB to a SB raise. If the guy has a hate on, this is something he might do.
Plus, how many clean outs does trick have, if he's not already drawing dead?
Anyway, the guy probably had real crap and trickflow called him down and won with his A high.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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I didnt win, and you thinking i just posted this to show off is insulting. I wanted to see if anyone found a fold on the turn, and the reason why.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
Arctic, this guy has a grudge against me, so deductive reasoning does not apply.
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Ok, thanks. It is hard to apply logic to only some parts of his game, but not others though. His check raise could mean he is bluffing, or it could mean he is trying maximize the revenge (I find people sometimes use Check raising in a punitive way).
One thing, he's either got a a great hand or absolute crap. I don't see room for much in between.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
I didnt win, and you thinking i just posted this to show off is insulting. I wanted to see if anyone found a fold on the turn, and the reason why.
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No,no sorry Trick, you misunderstood. I didn't think you would show this to showoff. I thought you might have shown it because you were trying to show what some people would call with pre-flop when they have revenge in mind or when they are on tilt.
Also, many hands are shown because they are, in fact, hard to read.
I've never seen you post any "give me a cookie" posts.
Sorry if you misunderstood.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
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its cool, just checking. You wouldnt cap this preflop? and would fold the flop? and you play 6 max?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
its cool, just checking. You wouldnt cap this preflop? and would fold the flop? and you play 6 max?
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Yeah, my thoughts exactly....
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Quote:
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Nine of the ten greatest poker plays I've made are folds.
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That sig is sooo weak tight 
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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can you put him on a PP? ive noticed many players limping with PPs in a variety of positions to induce more action, then when it gets raised to them, they come alive and 3bet. not exactly the case here, but if he puts you on ak-aj, his check raise could be testing the waters. his turn lead would then mean hes confident his boat is good.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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I put the guy on two cards, any two cards for that matter. No one limp raises from the small blind., unless that hate you for busting them over and over and over.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
I put the guy on two cards, any two cards for that matter. No one limp raises from the small blind., unless that hate you for busting them over and over and over.
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I see it every now and then with med to small pocket pairs. Grudge not included...
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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only in blind battles, i guess your right, it has happened to me before.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
I put the guy on two cards, any two cards for that matter. No one limp raises from the small blind., unless that hate you for busting them over and over and over.
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if you honestly put this guy on any two, i might have to call this down from the flop if you dont have a good read and you think hes just out for you.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
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i put him on small pockets
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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I say call down here, too likely he's got AK, I've split pots like this before.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
its cool, just checking. You wouldnt cap this preflop? and would fold the flop? and you play 6 max?
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Hi
Quote:
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I wouldn't cap the pre-flop
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I could jump in with the majority here, but I am just trying to be honest about how I would play it. I don't see an advantage in capping AKos pre-flop. So I can pretty much say I would never cap this with AKos . I'd be happy cold calling because I have position. If SB checks, I can check or bet, depending on the flop. If he bets I can fold, call or raise depending on the flop. I never like to 4 bet and then check, or worse yet, fold.
By calling the bet, I'm Ok if the SB thinks I have nothing. Perhaps I'll extract more if an A or K hits if the SB sees my cold-call on the 3 bet as a way of backing slowly out of a bluff with some dignity. My rule of thumb for capping pre-flop is to hold a hand that might hold up unimproved, or if I hold an AKs with two or more callers. My PFR % is high enough, so not capping has nothing to do with a lack of agression for me. I just see it as investing too much before I know whether I have the best of it. Why not lay lower (just call the 3 bet) and make it up with more BBs if and when you hit?? Let him think the call on the 3-bet was weakness.
So, when I say I'd fold AK here after the flop, It does'nt mean I always would or even that I mostly would. It just means that in your example I would. Period. I don't think it's fair to generalize my play off a specific hand. I used to drag AKos to the river way too much when I first started,
and was -EV. Then I used to fold AKos every time after bad flop if there was a bet, and I was once a again -EV. I now play AKos post-flop situationally, depending the player(s), betting, board, etc.
I guess if I take this at face value, what you are saying is that If I don't make decisions the same as you and Fnord, I shouldn't be playing 6 handed? I know I have gaps, but I'm doing more than OK at 6H.
If you wan to offer some constructive quidance about why my approach above is incorrect, I'd be glad to read it. I want to fill any holes I can. That's how I'm learning. And I'm learning lots from you folks.
If you want to leave it is a cheap shot, that's fine too, it's just not very informative for me as it is.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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