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outphase
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07-25-2005, 03:36 AM
Post subject: Anyone feel they would lose as much as I did? (NC)
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is CO with A , A .
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero caps, Button calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.
Flop: (18.50 SB) Q , T, 7 (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.
Turn: (11.25 BB) 8 (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.
River: (15.25 BB) 5 (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, UTG folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 19.25 BB
Results in white below:
Hero has As Ah (one pair, aces).
Button has Ac Kc (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Button wins 19.25 BB.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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gutshot
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
Posts: 608
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Played it fine.
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-jay
"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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I believe I would have lost the same. 
Gotta love them calling down and then raising on the river as that third club comes out...
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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gutshot
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
Posts: 608
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I think villain played his hand fine here too. He had tons of outs and there was no way he was folding any street for one bet.
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-jay
"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gutshot
I think villain played his hand fine here too. He had tons of outs and there was no way he was folding any street for one bet.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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I would have check-called the river. Betting out when the 3rd flush card comes down is just inviting a raise and costing you more to show down your hand. IOWs, You can't fold on the river because the pot is pretty big, but you can't value bet either!
Against very predictable opponents where you can be almost certain that a river bet here means they hit the flush then you can even fold on the river, BUT you have to be careful not to do this too often. You have to be VERY sure they hit their flush. In smaller pots, you can fold more often, but in larger pots you almost always have to make the crying call.
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
I would have check-called the river. Betting out when the 3rd flush card comes down is just inviting a raise and costing you more to show down your hand. IOWs, You can't fold on the river because the pot is pretty big, but you can't value bet either!
Against very predictable opponents where you can be almost certain that a river bet here means they hit the flush then you can even fold on the river, BUT you have to be careful not to do this too often. You have to be VERY sure they hit their flush. In smaller pots, you can fold more often, but in larger pots you almost always have to make the crying call.
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I'm sorry, but this is just very bad advice. If you are checking this river because of a backdoor flush hitting, you are losing out on a LOT of value in the long run. This is definately a river value bet situation. Then to even suggest thinking about check/folding the river is just beyond my comprehension. I would definately suggest thinking a little harder about the types of hand you are likely to be up against here and how many will happily call your river bet and lose 
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nehmer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
I would have check-called the river. Betting out when the 3rd flush card comes down is just inviting a raise and costing you more to show down your hand. IOWs, You can't fold on the river because the pot is pretty big, but you can't value bet either!
Against very predictable opponents where you can be almost certain that a river bet here means they hit the flush then you can even fold on the river, BUT you have to be careful not to do this too often. You have to be VERY sure they hit their flush. In smaller pots, you can fold more often, but in larger pots you almost always have to make the crying call.
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I'm sorry, but this is just very bad advice. If you are checking this river because of a backdoor flush hitting, you are losing out on a LOT of value in the long run. This is definately a river value bet situation. Then to even suggest thinking about check/folding the river is just beyond my comprehension. I would definately suggest thinking a little harder about the types of hand you are likely to be up against here and how many will happily call your river bet and lose |
I'm sorry, my bad. You are right!! I misread the hand and didn't realize that it was a backdoor flush. (In bold to emphasize my mistake )
Nehmer is right, you have to bet for value on that river. How you respond to the raise is the more interesting question. You have to ask yourself 'what hands do you think villian can raise on the river here with?'
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Nehmer speaks da truth!
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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very well played by the button.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Think B&M here. Does anyone think that against the most str8-forward, predictable, weak-passive players (that you play with every day and therefore know very well) you can safely fold to this river raise, or is the pot just too big?
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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i think you make the crying call if for no other reason than to prevent people from bluffing you off the best hand in the future. betting all the way to the river then folding to one raise shows incredible weakness and is an invitation for others to bully the hell out of you.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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You can fold against some small stakes B&M players, but it is a bad habit to start, since once you move up in stakes, folding is horrible.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
You can fold against some small stakes B&M players, but it is a bad habit to start, since once you move up in stakes, folding is horrible.
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That's why you can only fold to the most preditable weak passives (that you know VERY well) who would only raise that river with a set or flush etc. Even still, you have to think about the size of the pot and make an EV plus read-based decision.
It works to your advantage for the trickier players to see you make this fold. They will assume that you will make this laydown against them too, but you can disappoint them by always making the crying call when THEY raise the river.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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This hand is 100% standard. There's a separate forum for bad beat stories.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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I agree; up until the river it is standard. But, there are some interesting considerations on the river worthy of discussion. e.g. I really don't think you always need to call this river raise and there's some merit in finding a fold in the right situations provided (i) you 'know' you are beaten, and (ii) you are aware of what it could do to your image and how you might be able to exploit that on future hands.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
I agree; up until the river it is standard. But, there are some interesting considerations on the river worthy of discussion. e.g. I really don't think you always need to call this river raise and there's some merit in finding a fold in the right situations provided (i) you 'know' you are beaten, and (ii) you are aware of what it could do to your image and how you might be able to exploit that on future hands.
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You should always be calling this river.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
This hand is 100% standard. There's a separate forum for bad beat stories.
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I wasn't saying it was a bad beat and whining. It was more of whether or not the value bet was justified.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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