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Anyone bet this river?

  
 
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midas06
Old 05-22-2006, 06:24 AM     Post subject: Anyone bet this river? #1 (permalink)  
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Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with T T
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 2 7 3 (10SB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: 2 (6.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: A (9.5BB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Results:
Final pot: 9.5BB
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-22-2006, 06:29 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I think so, getting 2-1 and in position. If they have a hand their most likely to bet this river.


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Xanadu
Old 05-22-2006, 02:25 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I bet it against most opponents. I've started checking behind on hands like this on the river against an opponent that loves to wait for the river for a check-raise though. Not a big sample, but seems to be saving me more bets than I lose.
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Miffed22001
Old 05-22-2006, 03:37 PM #4 (permalink)  
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everything completed id check here
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-22-2006, 04:52 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
everything completed id check here
why? They are more likely to have a pair on the flop than the flush draw and the ace probably didn't help then anyway.

Are you afraid of a check/raise? 3/6 6 max isnt that aggressive, they would donk it out, especially three way.


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midas06
Old 05-22-2006, 09:06 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I chose not to bet it because

a) it was against 2 ops and I figured something had to have got there on the river,

and b) I'm a pussy. Plus I've seen some river check raises from "slow playing" donkeys
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chardrian
Old 05-22-2006, 09:13 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
everything completed id check here
why? They are more likely to have a pair on the flop than the flush draw and the ace probably didn't help then anyway.

Are you afraid of a check/raise? 3/6 6 max isnt that aggressive, they would donk it out, especially three way.
I totally disagree. The standard 3/6 6 max play after hitting a draw is to go for the checkraise. You might get just a call from the guy who is calling down with A hi on this board, but the flush draw who doesn't know how to cap that flop (very common) is definitely checkraising that river.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-22-2006, 09:25 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I dont think so, maybe you'd find it at noon but not at midnight and not Party 3/6. How often do you have to be right to make this bet on the river?


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chardrian
Old 05-22-2006, 09:36 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I haven't played party 3/6 so I'll back off my argument a bit.

However, I still easily see both Ax and a flush draw playing exactly like the SB or UTG.

So the only hands you are beating are 7x(lower than A), 3x and 44-99.

I guess I am not as confident that you are ahead enough here for the river bet to be +EV. Seems to me that you are beat here pretty often and the times you are actually ahead, your opps will fold enough that you aren't really gaining anything overall by betting.

Meh - it's probably yet another leak of mine.
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Ltrain
Old 05-22-2006, 09:41 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I like the checkthrough here. I don't see a wide range of hands we can beat that will call the turn, and we have two callers. Maybe one of them has a lower pocket pair, 7 or 3, but against two callers, we are likely beat (SB more likely with a flush or wheel, UTG w/Aces) and the pot is too big for bet/fold.
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Miffed22001
Old 05-22-2006, 11:15 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Miffed22001 wrote:
everything completed id check here
why? They are more likely to have a pair on the flop than the flush draw and the ace probably didn't help then anyway.

Are you afraid of a check/raise? 3/6 6 max isnt that aggressive, they would donk it out, especially three way.
how often do opps put us on nothing but ace high and are passive chasing monkeys who see an ace hit the river (and complete their flush) and think 'omg hes got to bet now he has an ace!' If the river card was a blank middle spade i might consider betting here.
Similarlily, how often are we getting called down by Ax one pair (two pair river) donks and simply ace high donks?
Ive seen plenty enough of that to check behind here
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-22-2006, 11:54 PM #12 (permalink)  
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You miss bets then.


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chardrian
Old 05-23-2006, 04:50 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Do you fold to a river checkraise here ej?
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-23-2006, 04:53 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chardrian
Do you fold to a river checkraise here ej?
Thats dependant on the players. Retard I'm calling, TAG I'm folding. In between, I'll probably still call.


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Xanadu
Old 05-23-2006, 09:16 PM #15 (permalink)  
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An interesting side note to folding if you get check-raised on the river ...
This could have meta-game value or negative value depending on the table you are at. It certainly isn't losing much unless you are up against a known river raise bluffer simply because almost noone check raises the river here without at least an ace. If you have a tighter image, it may be worthwhile to fold here with little to lose in equity on this hand, but much you can possibly gain in future hands. Even fish notice when you lead all streets after 3-betting preflop and fold to a river raise. As it says in SSH, you don't want to fold much here because you will encourage players to take shots at you, turning passive players more aggressive which is usually bad. BUT, if this is the occassional table where you want to encourage this (as in when opponents are folding to your aggression too much) a fold here is perfect.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-23-2006, 10:02 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanadu
An interesting side note to folding if you get check-raised on the river ...
This could have meta-game value or negative value depending on the table you are at. It certainly isn't losing much unless you are up against a known river raise bluffer simply because almost noone check raises the river here without at least an ace. If you have a tighter image, it may be worthwhile to fold here with little to lose in equity on this hand, but much you can possibly gain in future hands. Even fish notice when you lead all streets after 3-betting preflop and fold to a river raise. As it says in SSH, you don't want to fold much here because you will encourage players to take shots at you, turning passive players more aggressive which is usually bad. BUT, if this is the occassional table where you want to encourage this (as in when opponents are folding to your aggression too much) a fold here is perfect.
Good point, if you do fold this time to a checkraise, you must call next time.


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