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another sad hand..

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Chopper

01-05-2009, 03:00 PM Post subject: another sad hand..

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

are we at the mercy of the table here? or is there a better way to protect such a vulnerable hand? i cant see us folding anywhere but preflop to the raise, but can we even there? that board is just so drawy that there could be a lot of bullshit out there for TP to fold.

i know i'm likely best on the flop, and possibly turn, but i cant really do shit because of all the players...and i cant simply lead and force mistakes. because of this, is the flop actually a c/f?

0.5/1 Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($15.25)
UTG+1 ($19.50)
CO ($27.95)
BTN ($127.90)
Hero (SB) ($24.35)
BB ($10.00)

Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is SB

UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB raises, UTG calls, CO calls, Hero calls

Flop:

(8.0 SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero calls

Turn:

(5.5 BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, CO calls, Hero calls

River:

(8.5 BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, CO raises, Hero folds, BB calls

Final Pot: 12.5 BB
BB shows:

CO shows:

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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BennyLaRue

01-05-2009, 03:43 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 646

BennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of light

You can't fold pre. Completing the blind is standard in that spot and when it gets back to you, you're getting 8:1 with a suited hand. It's fine.

I hate these spots, btw, so probably don't play them right. Good hand to post, and this is what I'd do.

I bet the flop here. My play is then dictated by opp reactions:

The BB will likely raise at these stakes and you can use him to force out drawing hands. This is the only method of protection you can even attempt, but a flushing hand might still cold call. A) If all other players fold after the BB raise, call the raise when it gets back to you and hope you improve on the turn. B/F the turn, C/F the river. B) If there are any cold-callers to BB's raise on the flop, I'd call the raise, C/F the turn without improving.

If no one raises behind you on the flop but 1) you get multiple callers, C/F the turn is the likely response. 2) With only one caller, I B/F the turn, B/F the river and chalk it all up to kicker concerns.

KoRnholio

01-05-2009, 06:37 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Looks fine. Even if you donk bet it into the raisor, his raise won't shut out any draws as they will be getting odds of 11:2 (5.5:1).

If the BB fires again on the river and CO folds, are you calling? Pretty much everything (even AK, 99) beat us with that river card. I don't play 6max much because I find folds in spots like this :P

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Chopper

01-05-2009, 06:58 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

sadly, you kind of have to be a station in 6max games. instead of debating calling or folding, you are debating betting or calling. folding in 6max is MUCH less often the correct play. of course that applies more to 2 and 3 handed situations, which this is not.

this one is pretty much "abc." (or, more like a FR hand) the problem is we are so oop, and everyone with any draw is correct to call a bet. we cant rely on BB to raise for us because so often they dont. AND, even if he did, the first guy to call after BB raises is still getting 5:1....hardly smashes any odds.

i was hoping it would check through and, i could lead a brickish turn and cut the odds to 5:1 straight out of the chute with only ONE card to come. and, if i got lucky and BB raises to make it 3.5:1, all the better. but, once the BB leads the flop, that thought/plan is out the proverbial window, too, and i am officially fucked in a shitty spot with the best hand that will never be best by the river.

i just thought i'd post this, too, on the heels of the A4s hand since i blasted 3barrels on that hand, but called along on this one.

TP is nice, but it obv depends on whether or not there are overcards to your TP. to me, that is essentially why i played one fast and the other rather pussishly. in the A4s hand, i felt i was best and had a great chance of still being best on the river....that it was worth betting a couple streets. however, in the Q6s hand, i felt any K/A screwed me (since these guys drag these hi cards all the time)...and the flushiness of the flop made it more likely that Arag wasnt going anywhere, too.

is that analysis making sense, or are there any fundamental holes i am still missing?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

01-05-2009, 07:03 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

lol. the shame is that this much thinking went into Qfuggin6. but, i guess it WAS soooooooooooooted.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

BennyLaRue

01-05-2009, 08:21 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 646

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Looks fine. Even if you donk bet it into the raisor, his raise won't shut out any draws as they will be getting odds of 11:2 (5.5:1).

Yeah, you're right, assuming at least one of your opps knows pot odds. I'm just thinking if you can isolate against the BB's likely broadway/big pair, your equity goes up to the point where you're a favorite. I'll take a shot at that isolation with the only possible pot defense I have. I figure I've got at least a big bet going into this pot no matter what way I play, I might as well get it in aggresively.

Mr Bigcity

01-05-2009, 08:48 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2008

Location: Auburn

Posts: 122

raise early and often in limit to try and avoid this

bigspenda73

01-05-2009, 08:57 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bigcity

raise early and often in limit to try and avoid this

yea maybe if you raise the flop the guy might fold his flush draw!!!

bleh, std.

Mr Bigcity

01-06-2009, 12:00 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2008

Location: Auburn

Posts: 122

look raising in this hand probably will not help, but I can assure you if you read anything about limit hold em what I said is usually done by the pros. Besides playing limit hold em at low levels is really dumb considering every moron will call with anything if the stakes do not really cost much to keep calling with junk and hope you hit

asdpikas

01-06-2009, 12:01 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

bet flop, try to isolate

true, flush draw is not going anywhere, but all the gutshots, Kx and some Ax will fold if BB raises your donk, and that is a big improvement for your chances to win the pot (which is definitely worth fighting for w TP and 4BBs already in there)

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

Chopper

01-06-2009, 12:31 AM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

ok, you and korn seem to be on the same page here. plan for turn when only called and you dont get your raise? c/f? b/f? (latter seems like spew)

Quote:

but I can assure you if you read anything about limit hold em what I said is usually done by the pros.

this is only a small portion of what the "pros" say. you are missing a TON. and, what you've read is generally regarding higher stakes....and full ring. this is neither.

Quote:

Besides playing limit hold em at low levels is really dumb considering every moron will call with anything if the stakes do not really cost much to keep calling with junk and hope you hit.

frankly, the bold part is insulting as hell, especially with only a defense of "considering every moron will call with anything." and, if you cant see why that is the most profitable part of poker, i think you need to rethink the entirety of what you said. kthanks.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

01-06-2009, 01:15 AM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

ok, you and korn seem to be on the same page here. plan for turn when only called and you dont get your raise? c/f? b/f? (latter seems like spew)

b/f is def the way to go if no raise on flop
Lps will call light but raise strong, u want them to call with mid pair or whatever, and u cant allow a free card.... NOOO...
If u get raised, u will fold the best hand only a small portion of the time, not enough to call 2 BBs to find out. It will suck to fold, but thats the breaks.

the T on the turn doesnt mean much (maybe J9 or T8 improved, but not much else), so going passive there is a mistake. U should be worried about overcards or clubs, and since the turn didnt bring any, your equity (considering there was no flop raise) should have gone up, so betting is def the play.

In this analysis i am considering these players LPs, seeing the 6max limpfest, but reads would be useful (does BB play aggressive on the turn? does he wait to raise to protect?)

Chopper

01-06-2009, 01:22 AM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

who knows (regarding specific reads). i hadnt been there too long at that point. but, the limpfest is about all i ever need to see to know i am on the right table.

i see the point. and, i sometimes forget...."if you are calling a bet, you should bet instead." err on the side of aggression in that regard.

many thx.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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