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DeanCarl
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04-20-2005, 10:26 PM
Post subject: Another Question
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alpine, CA
Posts: 80
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Told ya'll I was gonna learn this game. 
AJo in middle position. Folds and limps to me so I limp. 2nd player to my left raises. Ok, so now what? I folded. Right move?
Dean
P.S. re: The A2s question ealier. Got it a few minutes ago. Paired the ace on the flop. Lots of action so decided not to stay. The winning hand? King high! 3 hands later got it again. Paired on the flop again. Stayed this time. Winning hand? Pair of aces, jack kicker. No matter what decision I make lately it seems to be the wrong one.
I WILL learn this game!
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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AJo in middle position. Folds and limps to me so I limp. 2nd player to my left raises. Ok, so now what? I folded. Right move?
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When I'm in MP with a hand like AJo, I like to raise. You raise for a few reasons:
1. You might have the best hand right now, so you are raising for value.
2. You are also trying to shut anymore hands out of the pot that could beat you with sneaky stuff, so you are raising for isolation.
3. In the MP, in a game that is even a little normal, a lot of times you can steal the button, which is a HUGE advantage.
Having said that, once it was raised after you called, you should usually call since it's only one more SB to play. I'm pretty sure the limpers ahead of you called. Generally, if you limp and get raised you should call for one more SB.
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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Don't base your decisions on that one time that you WOULD have won if you stayed in. If you keep doing things the "right" way you will win in the long run. I think you were right to fold the ace with no kicker the first time. You should have just kept it up. With A2s you are going for the flush, not a pair of aces.
You have no idea how many times I would have flopped the nuts if I hadn't folded. It happens. But it is rare...too rare to put any money on it.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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The A2s question ealier. Got it a few minutes ago. Paired the ace on the flop. Lots of action so decided not to stay. The winning hand? King high! 3 hands later got it again. Paired on the flop again. Stayed this time. Winning hand? Pair of aces, jack kicker. No matter what decision I make lately it seems to be the wrong one.
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There are a few factors in how you decide to play your dry ace once the flop brings an A.
If the flop is connected, say 2 cards to a broadway straight, or a two-suited flop, I will continue. Reasoning, a lot of decent players who have ever read a book will raise with their flush and straight draws, especially if they are in late position. If you are getting crazy action from a decent player in early position, i.e. they checkraise the flop, you might want to give them credit for the goods since they are trying to protect a made hand usually against the coordinated board.
Tools like PokerTracker can help out in these cases somewhat also. You also want to determine if you are going to end up getting trapped between raisers in this kind of situation. Getting caught in between two AGG players holding a dry ace can get expensive.
It always depends, which is why you see so many experienced players tell you to eliminate the hand almost altogether from your playlist, then bring it back in from the button as you gain experience. I think you can play Axs from MP in some situations but others may disagree.
I don't think you are losing a whole lot if you just eliminate Axs from your repertoire altogether in your infancy.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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AJos plays terrible in multiway pots. I fold this hand routinely if I cant get the pot HU or 3 handed. To me it is really a raise or fold hand. Same with AQos, and it is also a difficult hand to play out of position.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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AJos plays terrible in multiway pots. I fold this hand routinely if I cant get the pot HU or 3 handed. To me it is really a raise or fold hand. Same with AQos
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You're folding AQo to limpers routinely? Wow.
Now what would you do in the specific situation Dean is talking about? He's in MP, a limper or two to him... I'm assuming this is a nickel game.
Just like it takes a special skill to play Axs, I think it also takes a special skill to fold AQo. Is this advice geared toward the 5/10 game specifically or what?
Also, regarding playing out of position, by raising from the MP, you are quite often improving your position by getting all or almost all behind you to fold.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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I fold AJos routinely, takes a little more for AQos. For his games I would play fit or fold poker, and I would raise AJ AQ from middle position on. Fold either hand if someone raises in front of you.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Trikflow, don't you think you should be inserting "it depends" in your answers a lot more? After all this discussion, we agree that he should have raised his AJo. You were giving a very general answer to a very specific question.
I agree, if you can't raise your AJo or AQo, you should muck it. That's pretty standard. I was getting the impression that you mucked your AJ and AQ to limpers, which sounded weird. AJ and AQ generally aren't 3-bettable hands in full ring, so yes, you muck if it's raised.
Now, what would you do if you limped your AJo for some reason (misclick) and had a raise behind you? Would you fold?
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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It is almost always incorrect to fold for one more small bet once you have already invested money in the pot.
I don't think you are losing a whole lot if you just eliminate limp folding from your repertoire altogether in your infancy.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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What does this mean exactly? Limping, then folding to a raise?
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
What does this mean exactly? Limping, then folding to a raise?
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Yes, that is specifically what I was talking about.
Unless you have a highly speculative hand like 57o in the sb, you complete and the BB raises.
If you have any decent hand and you limp int othe pot, then someone raises behind you, the pot is laying you better odds than when you originally limped.
For example in this situation AJo in MP say 2 players limp.
The bb+sb+ 2 limpers = 3.5 small bets. The pot is laying you 3.5 to 1 immediate odds to call.
You also limp, LP player raises. typical action might go: fold to the big blind, who calls, 2 limpers call
There is now the 3.5 small bets, + your call + raise + 3 calls =9.5 small bets.
The pot is now laying you 9.5 to 1 for a call!
To give you an idea of how often you should fold in this situation, 72 offsuit is a 8.9 to 1 dog against AA of the same 2 suits.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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DeanCarl
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alpine, CA
Posts: 80
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Oh my!!! I've been doing it back-asswards and letting raisers scare me off some fairly decent hands! No more!
Dean
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
To give you an idea of how often you should fold in this situation, 72 offsuit is a 8.9 to 1 dog against AA of the same 2 suits.
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this kind of thinking is flawed because it assumes both players are all in. your actual odds are much worse than that.
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