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Another postflop mistake...

  
 
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roymunson451
Old 09-26-2006, 03:46 PM     Post subject: Another postflop mistake... #1 (permalink)  
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I'll try to make this one a littlemore clearer.
Game seemed very loose aggressive so far. Two previous showdowns w/TP.
$2/4 9 ring
Hero as CO =TT

UTG calls.
Next 4 fold.
Hero R
BU folds
SB RR.
BB folds.
UTG calls.
Hero RR.
SB caps.
UTG calls
Hero calls.

13 SB = Flop 2d4d8s
SB bets.
UTG calls.
Hero R.
SB RR.
UTG calls.
Hero calls.

10.5 BB = Turn 2d4d8s9h
SB bets
UTG calls
Hero calls

13.5 BB = River 2d4d8s9h6d
SB checks
UTG bets
Hero ?

It was a good sized pot, and figured UTG had a flush, as he came alive. I knew SB would call, but TT was still TP...When do you lay down TT in a loose aggressive game?

To end SB = QQ.
UTG Ad3d.
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NWNewell
Old 09-26-2006, 04:48 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I would cap the flop, and if a blank falls on the turn and SB still bets out, you really need to think about folding.

With you capping, you are telling the SB that you are strong and going to push the pot on the turn too. He is probably not going to bet the turn on a flush draw or weak pair when thinks you are going to raise him.

It kind of depends on you're read and feel, but you still have two opponents going to the river, so even if you are wrong and fold the best hand, there is a decent change you chance they can draw out on you with an over card, two pair, or flush. So, combining the SB agression and your vulerability, it is going to be tough to win your fair share in this situation.

But with your Loose Aggressive read, this laydown is tougher.

Either way, one more SB makes it a little easier to get way from the hand on the turn, instead of calling down for 4 times as much.

But either way, it would be a hard hand for me to get way from too until UTG bets the 3rd diamond.
My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.
 
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kyc12
Old 09-26-2006, 07:08 PM #3 (permalink)  

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kyc12
If none of your T is a diamond, you probably should fold to the flop RR because it is quite likely UTG is on a FD (SD also possible, if he has neither he's either stupid or have you beaten). If you have one diamond, then I'll call the RR.

On the turn (assume you have a diamond), calling down is fine, the pot is too big to fold.

On the river, since you can only beat a bluff from UTG and SB is behind you with strength, you should fold. It is possible to make a crying call (maybe not a huge -EV, if you think SB may fold to a bluff), but if SB raise and UTG call, you must fold.
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arkitekton
Old 09-26-2006, 09:51 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Capping preflop with position, holding TT, is only right as a tactical move--occasionally you can beat such as JJ, QQ, or KK by getting aggressive when an Ace flops. Of course, it's expensive when it doesn't work, but when your opponent keeps going after you start betting/raising, it can occasionally save you a little by letting you avoid calling all the way to the river. AS a tactic, it's less effective against two opponents than against one.

If you're capping for value it's a mistake. TT is not very good against the sb's 3 bet oop, especially with a caller. Sb's range should be something like AK, AA-TT, which leaves you slightly ahead about 40% of the time, and significantly behind 60% of the time.

If I capped the flop as a tactic rather than as a value bet, when there's a bet and call I'll seriously consider folding, or call and fold to a turn bet. About the only time I'm ahead is against stuff like Ad Kd in the small blind and an unlikely Qd Jd utg. Once you raise and the sb reraises, I guess you can call on implied odds if one of your tens is a disamond--otherwise fold.

If you think you're likely to be ahead after sb bets the flop, you really need to put more effort into putting opponents on hands. Is he really going to donk into your flop cap with all of AK? If he's played a few hands in his life, I'd think that's very unlikely.

Interesting hand, and just btw, it can be more interesting for other posters if you don't post opponents hands right away, or if you post them in white so that we have the option...
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roymunson451
Old 09-27-2006, 04:37 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I concur that I should have laid down on the turn. Or at the minimum on the river when the BB came alive on the diamond draw. If the pot was smaller or the table not so loose, it would have been an easy fold on the turn or river. But some pots are juicier than others.

Thanks for the help though. This was a tricky one.
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Xanadu
Old 09-27-2006, 06:18 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Xanadu
turn you can lay it down. So, is it 5 bets to cap or is the HH messed up?
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arkitekton
Old 09-27-2006, 08:23 PM #7 (permalink)  
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arkitekton
was there an edit to the original post?
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