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Another line, KJs

  
 
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Hartlin
Old 05-30-2006, 10:20 PM     Post subject: Another line, KJs #1 (permalink)  
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Wouldn't mind another line check if you don't mind. Not very sure how to play these hands as of yet, only my second day playing limit 6 max.


PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, J.
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K, 2, 7 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB
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chardrian
Old 05-30-2006, 10:22 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Looks g00t to me.
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Hartlin
Old 05-30-2006, 10:22 PM #3 (permalink)  
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So raising here when folded to me is fine? What is the lowest hands I can be raising from here?
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chardrian
Old 05-30-2006, 10:29 PM #4 (permalink)  
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yes JKs is an open-raising hand for me in the CO. How low can you go? Totally depends on your specific table.
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Xanadu
Old 05-30-2006, 10:30 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Open raise from CO, my range is something like:

55+, A60, Axs, K9o, K7s, QT0, Q8s, JTo, J8s, T9s.

but it depends on the table. A little tighter if Button likes to cold call, a little looser if Button is very tight.
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Hartlin
Old 05-30-2006, 10:32 PM #6 (permalink)  
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So Xanadu, is raising my 22-44 PPs a mistake if noone has entered before me?
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-30-2006, 10:33 PM #7 (permalink)  
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6 handed = Short Handed Topic
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Xanadu
Old 05-31-2006, 12:02 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartlin
So Xanadu, is raising my 22-44 PPs a mistake if noone has entered before me?
I wouldn't say it is a mistake. The tables I play at seem to be looser than what many others here play, so the tiny pocket pairs don't play as well when you raise and end up 3 way. Some will open raise any pp from the CO, but usually I prefer to fold. depending on the table, I can see all 3 options being correct, and also think that there is probably not a whole lot of difference between raising and folding here at most tables. Basically, the better your chance of picking up the blinds or getting HU with the BB, the more you should want to play these hands. The reason you really don't want to be in a 3way pot with a hand like 22 is not that your equity is bad with the hand, but because the correct play if you don't hit your set is often hard to find. Your opponent could bet every round with a couple of overs, or they could have any pair. HU, not so much of a problem, but 3-way, you will have a hard time knowing the right play postflop.
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wufwugy
Old 05-31-2006, 01:07 AM #9 (permalink)  
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wufwugy is a name known to allwufwugy is a name known to allwufwugy is a name known to allwufwugy is a name known to allwufwugy is a name known to allwufwugy is a name known to all
 raise the turn instead of the flop.
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outphase
Old 05-31-2006, 06:08 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
raise the turn instead of the flop.
You say that knowing you hit 2 pair, but how likely are you going to raise the turn against a pf 3bet with just TPGK? Also, a flop raise is a cheap way to syphon out some information.
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euphoricism
Old 05-31-2006, 06:42 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outphase
Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
raise the turn instead of the flop.
You say that knowing you hit 2 pair, but how likely are you going to raise the turn against a pf 3bet with just TPGK? Also, a flop raise is a cheap way to syphon out some information.
Both of you are wrong. We should raise the RIVER.

Dear Limit SH forum,
Stop being so damned predictable with your propensity to raise any time you think you have the best hand.
Its costing you money.

If the pot is heads up, and your opponent is willing to bet into a pot drawing to three outs, WHY RAISE HIM AND TELL HIM TO STOP!? Do you really want him to fold when youre ahead? Well, he certainly ain't folding when HE'S ahead, and he's going to make you pay.

Don't raise the flop. Call down, raise the river. In this case we paired our kicker on the turn, so thats an easy raise, but if the turn was just some, i dunno, 8 rag, I flat call there too and raise just about any river.

I might not raise the river if it was an ace.

I also fold to a river threebet. Some people disagree with that, and will pay the river threebet off. I rarely do, and I always hate myself after I do. I don't think I've won a hand yet when my opponent bet/3bets the river and I use this line.
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midas06
Old 05-31-2006, 10:45 AM #12 (permalink)  
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I think you're wrong here Euph. At these stakes, normal villains will make mistakes on the bigger streets, so you should get your raises in on the turn so that you could get more bets in.

Disclaimer: for non-thinking villains only.
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Hate
Old 05-31-2006, 12:01 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Euph, what if villain check/calls the river? you've lost 1sb, and villain could do this fairly often.
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Xanadu
Old 05-31-2006, 01:39 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Golly Gee! I think all of you are right and all of you are wrong. Each one of the lines suggested here has merit, and none of them are bad. I would use all of the lines here, not just depending on the opponent, but depending on the current dynamic with the opponent. To get the most you have to switch it up and get a feel for how the opponent's game is changing (very few short-table players I have seen always play the same).

Many hands have a pretty clear cut way they should be played, but most have several reasonable options (especially at 6max). Taking a hand out of the context of the hands that have come before makes it impossible to really know what the best play is just from a hand history. All we can do is debate with each other over how to play it against standard opponents, or against certain types of opponents, or if we have a certain read. Even this can be a futile task since the reactions of most opponents will change from hand to hand.
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pokerfanatic
Old 05-31-2006, 05:59 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanadu
Golly Gee! I think all of you are right and all of you are wrong. Each one of the lines suggested here has merit, and none of them are bad. I would use all of the lines here, not just depending on the opponent, but depending on the current dynamic with the opponent. To get the most you have to switch it up and get a feel for how the opponent's game is changing (very few short-table players I have seen always play the same).

Many hands have a pretty clear cut way they should be played, but most have several reasonable options (especially at 6max). Taking a hand out of the context of the hands that have come before makes it impossible to really know what the best play is just from a hand history. All we can do is debate with each other over how to play it against standard opponents, or against certain types of opponents, or if we have a certain read. Even this can be a futile task since the reactions of most opponents will change from hand to hand.
Well said, I have always sad that math only takes you so far you can have 2 or even 3 lines that have so close to the same +EV you need to pick the one that makes you the most given the table dynamics, your table image, and what your opponents ranges are... of course this takes a lot of practice doing this at 3 or 4 tables, as well does reading the board and the range of hands your opponents could have...

If I had to take a guess of playing purely mathematical you would probably make around 1bb/100... The extra beats come from the "feel" I guess you could say... I might be wrong there but it seems like it would be close to something like that...

This is why I like 6 max so much it never gets boring that’s for damn sure, always keeps you on your toes trying to figure out how to extract money from a new situation…
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-31-2006, 06:13 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 I agree, they all have merit, everything except Euph's idea to raise the river but fold to a three bet. I can find you some examples where I've been raised on the river by only obvious nut hands would raise only to find out they have air.


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koolmoe
Old 05-31-2006, 07:26 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Stop being so damned predictable with your propensity to raise any time you think you have the best hand.
Its costing you money.
As a general statement (i.e., out of context), this makes me laugh. I do agree that your line has merit against aggressive, thinking opponents. Against calling stations I would rather just hammer away at them when I've made a hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
I also fold to a river threebet. Some people disagree with that, and will pay the river threebet off. I rarely do, and I always hate myself after I do. I don't think I've won a hand yet when my opponent bet/3bets the river and I use this line.
We've argued this ad nauseum, so I won't go there again. I will say that I can't believe you don't get three-bet a lot more in spots like that if you are rarely calling one more bet. I would just guess you were bluff-raising a lot if I saw that and start three-betting you with weaker and weaker hands.

It would be interesting to look at your database and see what percentage of the time you win at SD when you just call a river raise or 3-bet HU.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-31-2006, 07:46 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe

It would be interesting to look at your database and see what percentage of the time you win at SD when you just call a river raise or 3-bet HU.
Its got to be like less than 1 in 10 to not make that call profitable.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, K.
3 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6, 5, T (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) T (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Js Kd (flush, king high).
BB has Ah 4s (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB.

Reads: Villain is 45/5/.9, even the most passive idiots make tilt raises man. Granted, King high flush is strong but who raises the river that doesnt beat the flush? Well, this guy did....


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chardrian
Old 05-31-2006, 08:01 PM #19 (permalink)  
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He was thinking it was the only way for him to win the hand.

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euphoricism
Old 06-01-2006, 01:56 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Jeff: Its not about whether he'll raise the river with the nuts. Its about can you reasonably expect to beat a hand he raises on average?

If you held A6o here, you wouldn't play it the same.
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euphoricism
Old 06-01-2006, 02:35 AM #21 (permalink)  
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I should clarify, I think you guys may be taking my statements too far.

I hold 88, raise preflop, BTN calls
Flop 8JT, I bet villain calls
Turn 3, I bet villain calls
River K, I bet villain raises, I certainly call. My hand will beat his often enough.


I hold KJs, I raise preflop, villain threebets from the blinds, I call
Flop K72, villain bets, I call
Turn 9, villain bets, I call
River 3, villain bets, I raise, villain re-raises. I fold.

Definitely a difference in the strength of my hand.
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Xanadu
Old 06-01-2006, 02:00 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Xanadu
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism


I hold KJs, I raise preflop, villain threebets from the blinds, I call
Flop K72, villain bets, I call
Turn 9, villain bets, I call
River 3, villain bets, I raise, villain re-raises. I fold.
Why would you raise the river if you are going to fold to a 3-bet? Your opponent only needs to 3-bet you about 1 in 10 times for your raise to lose money. A hand like this has almost 0 fold equity, because if they fold, you would have won anyway. Against a lot of opponents, I raise this river and when I raise, I never fold.
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chardrian
Old 06-01-2006, 06:34 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Yeah - if you are ever raising the river, I don't see how it can be +EV in the longrun to ever fold to just one more bet (unless you were retarded enough to bluff by raising a river).
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