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Another KQ Overcall (LHE)

  
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-23-2007, 06:47 AM     Post subject: Another KQ Overcall (LHE) #1 (permalink)  
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 Yea yea yea, fold the turn. I didn't even notice that until I reviewed the HH. I really need to cutback on 5-6tabling. Im more concerned with the river call.

Someone teach me two things:
1. How to play
2. How to fold

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, Q.
UTG calls, MP raises, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8, Q, 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) A (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (12.25 BB) K (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB
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KoRnholio
Old 05-23-2007, 06:58 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Would a flop check-call and then re-evaluate on the turn be better? Even with your check-raise people, behind you are getting 5.5:1 on their calls on a fairly coordinated board.

As played... The button seemed to like the flop but hasn't raised the turn or river to indicate something better than 2 middle pair. I am quite sure we are ahead of him, but against MP all we can really beat is AJ and AT, which are quite possible given his line.

And again with a pot so big getting 15:1 I think we should make the call. If MP has us beat I am guessing it's by A8, A9 or possibly AK.
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Ragnar4
Old 05-23-2007, 07:17 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I think a 3rd bet on the flop lets you know EXACTLY where you're at here.

I can just imagine some Donkey is check calling all the way down with JT.

The River. I don't like a call. But Equity wise, it's a disaster to lose 15.25 BB when it only costs you one more bet to find out exactly where you're at.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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sinky
Old 05-23-2007, 10:00 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
I think a 3rd bet on the flop lets you know EXACTLY where you're at here.
He can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
I can just imagine some Donkey is check calling all the way down with JT.
Without any reads, I'm not worried about JT. Just don't see how it fits with this hand history. More likely MP check/called the flop with AK, AJ or AT (or really badly slowplaying a set). Button at best has something like QJ, QT, T9 or possibly KQ .

There are 24 ways MP could have AJ or AT and only 9 ways he could have AK. So that works out at ~ 4 outs. So initially it looks like you have good enough odds to call the turn. But as this example shows when the K hits on the river you have to call another bet on the river to find out you are wrong.
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Stagemn
Old 05-25-2007, 05:06 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Here's how'd I would've played it:

PreFlop: Re-Raise. KQo looses so much value short handed when cold called. If you got 3-bet, then do so. Got to know where you're at here.

Flop, Bet. You got TPGK. If he raises, because you got two callers and your next to act, re-raise to force drawers out. Then turn to passive if you don't go heads up.

Turn: because a Ace shows up don't mean he's likely to have AQ. But one of the others may as well. Here I'd check-call.

River: 2 pair... Bet/check and call any raise. Do not fold. Pot too big here.
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euphoricism
Old 05-25-2007, 08:42 PM #6 (permalink)  
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There is no way in hell you reraise KQo from the blinds with 3 players playing for 2 sb each. Youre just inflating the hell out of the pot with an oft dominated and easily drawn out hand.

c/f the turn. River call is fine.
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bigspenda73
Old 05-25-2007, 09:01 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 After reviewing the hand...

Yea, worst turn card ever, but, when MP donks it I cannot put him on anything except the nuts. Turns out he had 88 I believe and the button had Ax and was taking a stab at the flop (lol into 3 other players on that board in a raised pot). It's hard to put him on JT so 88/99 do make sense at this level.
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Stagemn
Old 05-25-2007, 10:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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sorry, was looking at my cheat sheet just now.. KQs yes Re-raise. In this situation.... it's flip from re-raise/folding pending reads.
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euphoricism
Old 05-26-2007, 07:18 AM #9 (permalink)  
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No way in hell I'm folding, either.
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Stagemn
Old 05-29-2007, 03:51 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
No way in hell I'm folding, either.
Note: I said "pending read". If it's up vs. a loose passive player who's PFR is like 3%, it's auto-fold... he's got JJ+. No sense in battling it out-especially if he's got AA/KK. If this guy's seems to be a "mainiac", then yes, I'll re-raise it and hope to see K and/or Q high on the flop. If not and no Ace, then C-Bet. Knowing someone who has like a 20%+ PFR tells me he has Ax or even Kx so this warrants a re-raise.
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NWNewell
Old 05-29-2007, 08:01 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagemn
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
No way in hell I'm folding, either.
Note: I said "pending read". If it's up vs. a loose passive player who's PFR is like 3%, it's auto-fold... he's got JJ+. No sense in battling it out-especially if he's got AA/KK. If this guy's seems to be a "mainiac", then yes, I'll re-raise it and hope to see K and/or Q high on the flop. If not and no Ace, then C-Bet. Knowing someone who has like a 20%+ PFR tells me he has Ax or even Kx so this warrants a re-raise.
I disagree

Getting about 6.5:1 to call in this spot, I'm doing it almost every time. Not an auto-fold anyway. Even if it is heads up against the 3% raiser, we have about 30% equity with 3.5:1 odds to call. Easy call, just about every time, sometimes a re-raise (especially HU in a steal situation). In this multi-way pot, depending on the other players, we could be only about even money (maybe slightly worse). But with UTG limping (poor 6max play) and Button coldcalling (again, poor 6max play), this alone indicates to me that playing post flop poker against them is probably enough +EV to make up for any potential slightly -EV preflop.

(FWIW... JJ+ is 1.8%PFR... against which we are 25/75 dog with 3.5:1 pot odds HU from the BB. But I'll admit, reverse implied odds kill us and makes me willing to fold in this situation.)

I'm never raising in this spot pre-flop. No one is going anywhere now (except maybe UGT, but that really doesn't buy us enough to make it worth the raise)

I kind of like the c/r on the flop to try and get UTG and MP out of the pot. You're extremely vulnerable with so many players and betting out probably isn't going to do much for you. Not sure if it is much better than betting out or c/c'ing, but I don't think it is much worse....

Don't care for the turn call. True you are getting 10:1 to call if you are behind, but many of your outs are dirty and you could be drawing dead.

If I ever call the turn, I'm probably making a crying call on the river with 13:1 pot odds hoping he has AT or AJ.
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