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Another example of what people are capable of

  
 
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Trons
Old 01-08-2009, 12:01 AM     Post subject: Another example of what people are capable of #1 (permalink)  
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 PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 5
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB calls, 1 fold

PF is a little debatable I guess. UTG is new to the table so no read. Other then that, I happen to be perusing forums when this table called for my action, saw all the cold calls and my hand and was like yeah...this is the type of situation I want to play this hand in.

Flop: (15 SB) 3, K, 5 (7 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls

This call here, again, was a little debateable but figured I had the outs to peal another off. Even if I go with two 5's as my only outs, I'm still getting the odds to draw...

Turn: (10.6 BB) 8 (7 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls

Thought about smooth calling, but I am also trying to buy outs in this large pot. If I can get an A to fold that's already paired the board then so much the better...those 3 A's (imo) are huge...this is the biggest question of this hand.

River: (18.6 BB) J (5 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls

Not much I can add to this.

Total pot: $12.30 (24.6 BB) | Rake: $0.40
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BennyLaRue
Old 01-08-2009, 12:56 AM     Post subject: Re: Another example of what people are capable of #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
PF is a little debatable I guess.
With 5 in the pot before you, I think it's great.

Ni han.
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KoRnholio
Old 01-08-2009, 02:37 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 I just smooth call the turn, you don't want to fold anyone out. You already paired your 5, so you WANT people with hands like A3 or AT to call with 3 outs or less (given that you have a flush draw, not all their kickers will win them the pot).

The only hand with an ace in it that you'd like to see fold is A8. And there is very little reason to believe anyone has that exact hand after calling a flop bet.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Trons
Old 01-08-2009, 03:16 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRnholio
I just smooth call the turn, you don't want to fold anyone out. You already paired your 5, so you WANT people with hands like A3 or AT to call with 3 outs or less (given that you have a flush draw, not all their kickers will win them the pot).

The only hand with an ace in it that you'd like to see fold is A8. And there is very little reason to believe anyone has that exact hand after calling a flop bet.
You're right about the aces (not sure you needed me to tell you that :lol ). When I was actually in my hand, I recalled the section in SSH about protecting marginal hands in large pots.

While there are probably no aces I want to drive out, there are several others that I would...any PP higher then my 5 (SD value, i know i'm not going anywhere, i want them to) a K with any kicker.

This is a good point of conversation because I really thought I was doing the right thing by raising here, smooth calling didn't really cross my mind...

Thinking about it some more, I still think that my equity goes up with each fold. At this point, with a marginal hand, the more dead money in the pot the better. Am I wrong? This is one of those situations where I could be leaving money on a table.
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BennyLaRue
Old 01-08-2009, 03:23 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRnholio
I just smooth call the turn, you don't want to fold anyone out. You already paired your 5, so you WANT people with hands like A3 or AT to call with 3 outs or less (given that you have a flush draw, not all their kickers will win them the pot).

The only hand with an ace in it that you'd like to see fold is A8. And there is very little reason to believe anyone has that exact hand after calling a flop bet.
There were *four* cold calls pre before Hero. What are likely cold call holdings for loose passives? Small pairs, suited connectors, broadway cards. Isn't there some merit in pushing out small pairs and possibly even Kx hands on the turn?
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asdpikas
Old 01-08-2009, 05:31 AM #6 (permalink)  
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pf is fine
flop is fine
turn is debatable, but i'd rather keep my implied odds intact, and raise the river if i hit. This is because given the action, i dont think these fish like to fold. Also, thinking that ur 5 will win this UI is utopian.
Still, as i said, its debatable. Any pot this big is worth fighting for, and you may take the free sd if u whiff and its checked to u with more than one opponent left.
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For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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asdpikas
Old 01-08-2009, 05:38 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I think Sklansky and Miller are speaking about something else regarding vulnerable hands.

Ur hand on the turn is just a draw. Ur pair of 5s is not likely the best hand against that many people.

A vulnerable hand (by the meaning of the book) is likely the best hand at the moment but also likely to be drawn out on. Say 77 on a 3226r board, multiway, where almost any card on the deck will pose a problem.
Raising to shut out overcards becomes mandatory there. With your A5, u dont want shutting out since u figure to be drawing already (improve your odds, preserve implied odds, invest less while behind)
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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Knytestorme
Old 01-08-2009, 06:39 AM #8 (permalink)  
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And here is more of what they are capable of, and what my luck has been like the last few days

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7, 7
Hero raises, MP 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls

Flop: (10 SB) 7, 6, 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP calls, SB calls

Turn: (9.5 BB) Q (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, SB calls, Hero calls

River: (15.5 BB) K (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP raises, SB 3-bets, Hero folds, MP calls

Total pot: $45 (22.5 BB) | Rake: $1

Results:
SB had 10, 8 (flush, King high).
MP mucked K, Q (two pair, Kings and Queens).
Outcome: SB won $44

I know the call on the river after the lead out was very questionable, but getting 16:1 I decided (after banking) to see but after the raise by MP I had to give it up
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KoRnholio
Old 01-08-2009, 06:43 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 A case could be made for raising the turn if we think these passives will all call 2 bets cold in this pot, due to a possible equity edge. But it would be slim at best.

I don't know that we can get everyone to fold their raggy kings, 8's or 66-77 here often enough either. I think letting them all in against our draw is good, more people to pay us off if we hit.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 01-08-2009, 11:54 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
I think Sklansky and Miller are speaking about something else regarding vulnerable hands.

Ur hand on the turn is just a draw. Ur pair of 5s is not likely the best hand against that many people.

A vulnerable hand (by the meaning of the book) is likely the best hand at the moment but also likely to be drawn out on. Say 77 on a 3226r board, multiway, where almost any card on the deck will pose a problem.
Raising to shut out overcards becomes mandatory there. With your A5, u dont want shutting out since u figure to be drawing already (improve your odds, preserve implied odds, invest less while behind)
No, I think he's right about SSHE. Miller proposes a raise here in such a large pot on page 159. You don't mind callers since you have the draw but the raise can protect some of your outs in case it doesn't come.
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asdpikas
Old 01-08-2009, 05:52 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
I think Sklansky and Miller are speaking about something else regarding vulnerable hands.

Ur hand on the turn is just a draw. Ur pair of 5s is not likely the best hand against that many people.

A vulnerable hand (by the meaning of the book) is likely the best hand at the moment but also likely to be drawn out on. Say 77 on a 3226r board, multiway, where almost any card on the deck will pose a problem.
Raising to shut out overcards becomes mandatory there. With your A5, u dont want shutting out since u figure to be drawing already (improve your odds, preserve implied odds, invest less while behind)
No, I think he's right about SSHE. Miller proposes a raise here in such a large pot on page 159. You don't mind callers since you have the draw but the raise can protect some of your outs in case it doesn't come.
What do you mean, protect your outs? Your club outs and your 5 outs need no protection, and do you think the possibility of maybe cleaning 2 aces outweighs the other considerations?
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BennyLaRue
Old 01-08-2009, 06:24 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
What do you mean, protect your outs? Your club outs and your 5 outs need no protection, and do you think the possibility of maybe cleaning 2 aces outweighs the other considerations?
Yeah, that point needed expanding on...protecting our outs or our hand (or forcing better hands to fold as I already described). Our flush will come in around 18% of the time. Raising the turn might be your only chance to win the other 82% of the time.

I just noticed something...what happend to UTG on the turn?
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asdpikas
Old 01-08-2009, 06:29 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
What do you mean, protect your outs? Your club outs and your 5 outs need no protection, and do you think the possibility of maybe cleaning 2 aces outweighs the other considerations?
Yeah, that point needed expanding on...protecting our outs or our hand (or forcing better hands to fold as I already described). Our flush will come in around 18% of the time. Raising the turn might be your only chance to win the other 82% of the time.

I just noticed something...what happend to UTG on the turn?
To me its not protection, its a semibluff raise, and i tend to do it less at the lower stakes because your folding equity against multiple opponents is close to zero, zip, nada...
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Trons
Old 01-08-2009, 06:32 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
What do you mean, protect your outs? Your club outs and your 5 outs need no protection, and do you think the possibility of maybe cleaning 2 aces outweighs the other considerations?
Yeah, that point needed expanding on...protecting our outs or our hand (or forcing better hands to fold as I already described). Our flush will come in around 18% of the time. Raising the turn might be your only chance to win the other 82% of the time.

I just noticed something...what happend to UTG on the turn?
Wow, I didn't notice that, I had to go back to the HH in my PT and check...He went all in with a .05 call on the flop which is probably why he doesn't show up for the rest of the hand.
Quote:
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Trons is right!
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BennyLaRue
Old 01-08-2009, 06:40 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
To me its not protection, its a semibluff raise, and i tend to do it less at the lower stakes because your folding equity against multiple opponents is close to zero, zip, nada...
Which is why it also serves a purpose as a value bet, what I was alluding to with "You don't mind callers since you have the draw" and is Miller's point as well.
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asdpikas
Old 01-08-2009, 07:15 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
To me its not protection, its a semibluff raise, and i tend to do it less at the lower stakes because your folding equity against multiple opponents is close to zero, zip, nada...
Which is why it also serves a purpose as a value bet, what I was alluding to with "You don't mind callers since you have the draw" and is Miller's point as well.
yes, i'm not saying its a BAD play, just calling it by its name.

I'm sorry if i'm a bit anal about terms, but i think its really important when discussing strategy that we are all on the same page on terminology or it will lead to misconceptions.
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BennyLaRue
Old 01-08-2009, 07:20 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by asdpikas
I'm sorry if i'm a bit anal about terms, but i think its really important when discussing strategy that we are all on the same page on terminology or it will lead to misconceptions.
Ah, yes, you're right. Sorry I wasn't catching on.
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