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| dalecooper |
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Last night I was playing heads up against a good friend of mine. When we play heads up we usually play HOPE (no limit Hold 'em, pot limit Omaha hi, pot limit crazy Pineapple, and pot limit omaha Eight), changing games every six hands. The game had been swinging crazily back and forth, but right now I had him semi-on the ropes with a Rippy-like series of raises, re-raises, and total bluffs. I had him outchipped probably 2:1. Omaha 8 hand: I am dealt JJJ6. Obviously a terrible hand, especially for hi lo, but per usual I fired out a raise from the button. He re-raised (not that much) and I called. I wasn't really hoping to set, just figured I could use my position to bully him, which had been happening on many recent hands. Flop is just about perfect: J84 with two clubs. He bets into me, pot-sized (!). I'm amused by this and raise the pot, which is most of his stack. He mulls over the 2:1 odds and eventually goes all in for a small raise, which I of course call. He turns over AA9T - overpair plus an open-ended straight draw. He doesn't have a low draw or the flush draw, although he does hold the ace of clubs. He also has a backdoor spade flush draw. Turn is a blank, river is... well, whatever. What do you think of his play here after the flop? I felt after the hand like he had no reason to take such a big risk with a marginal hand, when he still had chips to play with. He probably had to call when I raised him on the flop, but he set himself up for that by betting into me so strongly. Essentially he put himself all in as a 2:1 dog. Considering he had no low draw at all, though, it could have easily been worse than that if I had any two low cards to go with my set. Then again, considering how much I had been blasting him with raises, maybe he felt that it was worth the risk here to try to get into the pot first and take one away from me. If so, he definitely wins the bad timing award. Discuss... |
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| dsaxton |
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I'm not an Omaha 8 or Better expert, but it seems pretty bad on his part. He's probably an underdog to win the high end with no possibility of winning the low end if you have a low draw. I think calling his reraise with J, J, J, 6 is a pretty terrible play, though. Why get involved when your hand has almost showdown value whatsoever, when you can just fold and lose the minimum? If he has a hand like A, A with two low cards, how do you expect to be able to bully him when he flops a good low draw along with his overpair? It seems to me that high low split games are not games where you can expect to be able to bully opponents to the same degree that you can in high only games. I think you should've just open-folded. Also, why does it matter that he's holding the ace of clubs? |
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| dalecooper |
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Thanks for the reply saxton. I called his re-raise for a couple of reasons. One, it was a min-re-raise that was giving me brilliant pot odds... that's the lesser reason, though, since my hand was so bad. Two, I had position on him and most of the time when I had position, I had been working him all night in all four games. I have a pretty good tell on him that allows me to steal a lot of pots on the turn and river, and believe it or not it's more effective in Omaha and O8 than in any other game. This tell manifests most strongly when he misses draws, and when he has a hand with two or three draws and misses them all (like let's say a double bellybuster plus a low draw), there might as well be a sign on his forehead indicating as such. I was finding it very profitable in this game to ride him down to the turn or river, and then if he looked unhappy just bet him out. Actually one of the biggest swings in the game happened on a hand like that, where I ended up betting him out on the river with one middle pair for the high and no low at all. I don't even know what he had, but I knew the pot was up for grabs. So you can see I was trying to stay in as many pots as possible, and see as many flops as possible, almost regardless of what my cards were. And I forgot hidden reason number three: he hates raising pre-flop in Omaha or O8, and it's reliable as clockwork that if he actually does raise, he has AA or maybe A2 (in hi-lo). If he actually re-raises after I raise, there's no question in my mind that he has AA. And knowing half the contents of his hand makes me a big favorite in my mind, even if I completely miss - so long as there's no ace on the board. You're right that there is generally less bullying value in games like hi-lo. A better play (that I had been using often) would have been to smooth-call his flop bet and then raise him all-in on the turn. I'd been using that effectively in hand after hand. Unfortunately there was the problem that the board was fairly draw-friendly, with two clubs and a possible straight draw, so I had to protect my hand; and also that he was short-stacked enough that another bet on the turn would probably pot-commit him even if he missed. So I didn't have a lot of wiggle room. I figured for that reason I had to make any moves I was going to make right on the flop. Of course here I actually wanted a call, but if I hadn't made my set I might have played it the same and then gotten demolished. Meh. It was a sound strategy for most of the night, but maybe with him getting down to the felt I should have eased up and started playing my cards a little more - at least in the Omaha games. I mentioned the ace of clubs only because a thinking player will factor that into his decisions. It makes it slightly less likely that I have two clubs myself, and obviously I can't have the nut flush draw. In heads up play it's almost meaningless, but stray cards like that can definitely factor into decisions in fuller O8 games when you're on the fence about something. |
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| dsaxton |
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I suppose if you had strong evidence that he was weak whenever he was through either physical tells or betting patterns, then perhaps you can play a wider range of hands, but I would still fold. Unless you miraculously flop your one out set, the only equity you have is fold equity, and you're being faced with strength. Just fold and find better spots to win his money instead of gambling that he isn't going to have a hand capable of standing much pressure. Also, if you say he was getting short-stacked, then that is more reason to play stronger holdings since he'll be more willing to commit all his chips to the pot with a given hand. |
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| dalecooper |
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Quote:
With deeper stacks for both of us, I really don't mind calling his raises in Omaha/O8 with basically anything, especially if I have position. I'm lucky to have a good read when he's weak, plus the knowledge that he is a good enough player to play aggressively early in the hand but fold late if he assesses his hand as weak. No matter how big a pot has gotten, if I put a move on him and he doesn't have much, most of the time he'll fold. This occasion, though, was not the right hand and not the right time. |
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| lamaros |
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The terrible play was by you. You call a PF reraise when you say it's pretty much a clear indication he has AA/A2, prehaps even AA2, while you have JJJ5. He gets a pretty good flop. His is a good AI, not a bad one. You've been pushing him around and it's hardly likely you have both the low and high here. He's short stacked and has probably picked up one of his best hands for a while, to throw it away would be idiocy. That you managed to hit a fantastic flop doesn't make his AI stupid. What are the best cards you could put him on: Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 4s Jc 8c cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV Js Jd 5d Jh 223 442 378 0 0 0 0 0.405 Ts 9s Ac 2c 378 378 442 0 495 0 0 0.595 But really that's just giving him an extra 6 outs. ANY low+flush draw has you behind here. Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 4s Jc 8c cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV Js Jd 5d Jh 230 538 282 0 0 0 0 0.468 Ks 9s 5c 2c 282 282 538 0 520 0 0 0.532 Anyway. It's clear that he has to bet the flop. When you come over the top he has to call. He has a strong, if not great, hand and there is probably more than enough doubt in what cards you are playing to make the call. I mean, hell, he's not that big a dog even if he puts you on the set: Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 4s Jc 8c cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV Js Jd 5d Jh 515 515 305 0 0 0 0 0.628 Ts 9s Ac Ad 305 305 515 0 0 0 0 0.372 So in summary, the only bad play I see here is your PF call, and him not re-raising the pot pf. Should he bet the flop? Yes. Should you raise the flop? Yes. Should he go AI at this point? Given he's shortstacked and you've been playing it very loose, Yes. |
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| dalecooper |
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I don't know that my play was "terrible." I've explained my reasons for playing that way. The only consideration that I missed at the time was that he was short-stacked; if he had even a few more chips this would have been a sound call, because it was identical to the style of play that I had been using to railroad him all game long. I wasn't expecting to set or to end up playing for all his chips right on the flop; basically I just wanted to continue playing post-flop poker against someone I knew to be pretty tight, and not willing to call down big bets with just an overpair. To put this in some context, the two previous hands he had raised in Omaha he had AAxx, and had ended up folding his aces on the turn or river both times when his hand didn't improve. The first time I had a modest two pair (eights and threes); the second time I had just a pair of fives. This is somebody I *definitely* want to play a lot of hands against. JJJx, even JJJJ, would probably not deter me when I have position on him and I know he's raising with aces. Against this type of guy I'm playing poker, not playing my cards - which I know is counter-intuitive for Omaha, but it gets the job done. But again, I did know he was short, and maybe I should have realized that meant more showdowns were coming up soon. I over-estimated the length of time I was going to be able to keep pushing him around, I think. Also - I never implied that HIS play was terrible. We argued about it after the hand (of course) because I hate losing hands where I'm a favorite. But if you notice, I've gone to some length to defend him in this thread. This is "analyze the hi-lo hand," not "back me up on tearing my friend a new one." Actually I think he did what he had to do on most decisions; it's just unfortunate for him that the outcome was that he was a 2:1 or 3:2 dog for the rest of his stack, and unfortunate for me that he hit an ace on the river. I do think he should have re-raised a larger amount pre-flop, though. If more of his stack had gone in the middle right off the bat I probably would have let it go right there, knowing I couldn't make a bet later that would get him to fold. His min-re-raise was nothing but a pot juicer that told me what was in his hand; I'm not too fond of raises like that under any circumstances. |
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