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Am I becoming a calling station?

  
 
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:16 PM     Post subject: Am I becoming a calling station? #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J.
7 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 7, A, 2 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 8 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 3 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB
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kettleofish
Old 08-04-2008, 05:33 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I don't play FR, but even at 6-max i'd muck the turn unless u have a read that opp is a retard. Realistically what are u hoping he's capped PF then 3-barreled with that u beat? 1010, 99, something funky like KQ, KJ?

I could see a raise on the flop here. It may slow his PP's down and allow u to get to showdown for slightly cheaper if that's where u are headed, and it's an easy muck if he 3-bets.

That said call flop fold turn UI would be my line like 90% of the time.

U may care to check the graphs thread before deciding what to do with that advice tho!
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okiman
Old 08-04-2008, 08:27 PM #3 (permalink)  
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This is similar to a hand I asked about in an earlier post (just coming from the opposite end - playing tighter).

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...jj-t74045.html

Given the majority opinion then was for letting go of the hand, and since you don't have the backdoor draws here, I'd guess the same applies here.

Again, assuming no strong read on the opponent.
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DrivingDog
Old 08-05-2008, 12:08 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Hate to ask the obvious question, but do you have a read on your opponent?

Against a standard player at low limits, the cap and donkamatic betting is pretty strong and I'm tempted to just fold the flop. You could peel but what's the point really? You're not getting odds to draw and if he's bluffing he's not just going to give up on the turn once you just call the flop.

Alternatively, if he does check the turn you're not much better off. Are you going to bet? Fold to a c/r? Bet the river too UI? Betting's unlikely to get a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call. Obvious play is just to fold the flop with no read.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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kettleofish
Old 08-05-2008, 01:09 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
You're not getting odds to draw and if he's bluffing he's not just going to give up on the turn once you just call the flop.
I think u may have just pointed out a big leak of mine. In spots like these I figure, hey, 12:1 to call, that's almost the right price. But in reality it's not if he's going to bet the turn almost always.
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Ragnar4
Old 08-05-2008, 03:06 AM #6 (permalink)  
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with position, learn to raise on boards like this with PP's that seem trumped by an ace or a king

IE Raise the flop.. If he calls and then checks to you, you can check the turn and call the river, as long as it's a blank... if he fires back at you, you can pretty safely lay it down minus any reads.

You can't outplay your opponent, if you don't know how they play.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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DrivingDog
Old 08-05-2008, 10:25 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
with position, learn to raise on boards like this with PP's that seem trumped by an ace or a king

IE Raise the flop.. If he calls and then checks to you, you can check the turn and call the river, as long as it's a blank... if he fires back at you, you can pretty safely lay it down minus any reads.

You can't outplay your opponent, if you don't know how they play.

The problem with this line is a clever opponent wouldn't bet out with KK- in the first place and wouldn't 3bet an Ace except maybe AK on such a dry flop. He'd just call your raise and play it WA/WB. Once you check the turn behind the river is an easy bet for him with Ax, KK, or QQ. Now you've just given him 4 SB when you could have given him 0.

I think KQs is the only hand he caps preflop that you're catching with this play and that's a very tiny portion of his range.

Have to agree with the last part of your post though...
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Old 08-05-2008, 02:39 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Some more calling stationage, but I think here it is a better play:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, T.
7 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) A, 5, 7 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Here I thought I was beat but I had the odds to call (I think?)
PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 8.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T, Q, A (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 7 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 9 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB
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DrivingDog
Old 08-05-2008, 03:25 PM #9 (permalink)  
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1) Looks good. If he's bluffing you don't want to discourage him and if he has you beat you don't want to be jamming the pot.

2) Really need a read to play this correctly, but your line is ok otherwise.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Old 08-05-2008, 03:34 PM #10 (permalink)  
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in hand 2 I had the odds to call on the turn because of the backdoor flush draw
but the river call is like... I can only beat air
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DrivingDog
Old 08-05-2008, 08:20 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
in hand 2 I had the odds to call on the turn because of the backdoor flush draw
but the river call is like... I can only beat air
That's where the read comes in handy. Some guys will spaz out with KK, JJ, or KQs (ZOMG a pair AND a straight draw) and others will only 3bet the flop if they have you crushed with two pair or better. Knowing who is which is the difference between profitably calling down and folding to the flop 3bet.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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