Alrighty by request - How to: Omaha

Nice guide...I'm starting to really like Omaha, but I've been playing the hi/lo variety. Playable starting hands are MUCH different, but gameplay is essentially the same.

Thanks rada. <pats self on back for suggesting it, repeatedly>

But I have some questions on Omaha theory...

OK:
Bad Omaha Player: "Any hand can win, so limp with waffles and call down to the river"

This is trivially false.

Advanced Omaha player: "Omaha is a game of nuts and nut draws, so I am going to limp pre-flop with any pair, any two suited, any double connected, and hope I have nuts or draw to it on the flop, othewise fold".

However, Rada, MASTER OF OMAHA says to play Preflop more like NLHE - play premium hands, and raise them pre-flop.

My question is - since it's very difficult to win unimproved, let alone without the near nuts, why raise pre-flop? Even with AAKK double suited, the flop is going to flat out miss you (no more than 1 of either suit, no A, no K, no 2 of QJT) more than half the time.

Plus, if you do hit the nuts - you want callers with 2nd nuts, 3rd nuts, 496th nuts, etc. They are more likely to catch a piece of the flop if they are in than if they folded PF on your raise.

This said, my gut feeling is that Rada is right, and you should raise just about anything you play, since you likely have the best of it.

Either way, it makes much more sense to always limp or always raise to mask what you have.

Quite frankly at these limits your raise will be called and you willl probably eliminate only 2-3 limpers, You want to raise when you have a solid hand, because you have the best of it (same Idea as NL), and by raiseing you are just fluffing the pot, Raises's at the lower limits get 0 respect preflop and people will still call with even a tiny piece of the flop post flop.

As the limits increase the play changes, and raises are more respected. Then you know that if there is a raise, its generally coming from a player with a solid grasp of the game and you have an idea of what you would be drawing against.

Can you play omaha like a crapshoot and call everything and win? maybe. Can you win a lot of money doing it? No. The more structure you add to the game the more profitable you will be, just like any other form of poker (minus indian poker )

Nice post

One more hand to play very carefully are full houses where your full house is below the board's pair.

For example on a flop of


A full house of is ok
But a full house of
is a very dangerous hand, you will be beaten by another full house quite often.

to play omaha well and profitably you need to be a very patient player. if you think you're a tight player playing holdem, you haven't played omaha profitably yet.

starting hand requirements requires that ALL of your hole cards are coordinated. NOT just 2. many beginners see AKxx and start raising like crazy. AKxx is a very weak hand in omaha.

not only do your starting hands have to be coordinated, they have to hit the flop well too. so not only are you playing 10% of your hands, you'll only play 25% of the flops you see or less.

but the beauty of it is, you just need to hit your nut hand once an hour to make a huge profit because everyone will call you down with second best hands.

btw, if you aren't drawing to the nuts, or hold the nuts, someone more often than not has you beat.

Thank you for this thread. After reading through it I logged into Party, went to a pot limit Omaha table, and doubled my money on the second hand. I had fives and queens, flopped a queen, and the turn made a pair of jacks on the board... and that's how I took all of some poor sucker's money. He thought his trip jacks were good... not so much. I'll be sitting here patiently for the afternoon, I think. It also goes to show you how dangerous Omaha can be... anybody could have had anything. My full house was completely hidden.

Omaha is definatly a game of THE NUTS.

Had K's full of 5's cracked by Aces full of 5's who in Turn was cracked by Quad 5's. Kings full on the flop and I finish with 3rd best hand.

In Holdem a hand like Kings full rarely gets cracked by Aces full, but in Omaha, you can expect to see similar things quite often, quads are more common in omaha.

Also if you get dealt AAAA just fold it without a second thought, feels weird though.

Originally Posted by Legendash

Also if you get dealt AAAA just fold it without a second thought, feels weird though.

that goes for all quads. all trips should be folded too unless it was AAA2 and AAA3 suited

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

Originally Posted by Legendash

Also if you get dealt AAAA just fold it without a second thought, feels weird though.

that goes for all quads. all trips should be folded too unless it was AAA2 and AAA3 suited

Or AAAx where x is suited with one of the aces and is a broadway card, preferrably a Q or K. That's plenty to make a nut hand 3 different ways (ace-high straight, nut flush, aces up, set of aces or aces full).

Let me add another tip here. This applies only to O8.

If you don't have a way to scoop the pot and don't have the best or second best low already made, get out of the hand.

Let's say you've got AK27 in later position, and the flop comes 6810 and it's bet and raised to you, you should fold.

"But I've got a draw to the best low."

Yeah, an easily counterfeited low draw, plus no real way to make a high hand, outside of a runner-runner miracle. In this instance you can put a significant amount into the pot and come away with nothing. Even if the low gets there, you'll still win at most half the pot. Don't play for half the pot at most.

Now, let's switch just one card in that hand, make the 7 a 7. Now you've got a monster, a draw to the best low AND the nut flush. If you're getting 6 people calling, especially if they'll call 2 bets cold, you cannot lose. Play enough of those situations and you'll scoop 1/4 of the time and come away with the best low about 1/3 of the time.

You see how important it is to have a draw to the nut high?

But lets not get crazy here. You're playing a Hold'em hand while everyone else is playing Omaha hands.

-'rilla

Second Omaha hand today, I almost TRIPLED my money. I love this game. I had two guys call all in against this:

board 2, 3, 5, Q, K with no more than two of any suit

My hand: 4, 6

I don't even know what they held. I think one of them had the idiot end of the straight... the other guy, a set maybe? He was all in by the turn so maybe he was just looking for one of his outs to make a boat. The amazing thing is that in NL or PL Omaha on Party, you can get called on pretty much every hand where you have the nuts. It's not like hold 'em where sometimes you make quads or something and everyone folds to the first tentative bet you lay out there... in Omaha, everyone thinks they have a shot to win, even when the entire board is already exposed and they still have nothing better than 2 pair or a low straight. If you can be patient and wait for the truly good hands, you can make a killing on this game. There's few situations where you have to lose any substantial amount of money, as long as you understand the game and the strength of your hand. Oh, and - don't cave to the idiots and start splashing around huge amounts of money pre-flop. I will fold almost anything when they get into those escalating raise-wars. You just never know how the board is going to treat you in this game.

Decent guide, except I have to take exception when you say KK57 is a good hand. It's a very bad hand.

A general rule of hand selection is that You want all your cards to be coordinated, and in the above example the 5 and 7 aren't doing anything to help you. One way to think about it is by dividing your omaha hand into 6 different holdem hands, since you can only use 2 cards at the end. For example, if you have AKQJ, you have these possibilities:
AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ
Obviously this is an amazing Omaha hand because there are tons of ways that you can win, especially if you were suited or double suited.

But with KK57, the K5 and K7 hands are useless. So you really only have a chance to win if a king comes, or if you make a straight using the 5 and the 7 (which is very unlikely). If one or both of the kings are suited, it's a better hand, but you really don't want to be drawing to the second-best flush.

I've been limping Axs from the button figuring I can profitably play a flush draw from there. Also, I figure drawing to a flush in a small pot gives me a great chance to make a small stap on the flop as a semi-bluff and to buy my river card if I need it. Also it lets a fish make a HORRIBLE call when I hit since there will be so much money behind.

Been looking around a bit on this game. A couple more thoughts...

When fishy raises he has 2 aces. Call and take your implied odds. Put him all-in if you can beat aces.

Position is more important in PLO than hold'em. Drawing and getting value is SO much harder out of position.

Fnord: Hows it going so far? Have you downloaded pokertracker Omaha yet? Im sure you have, I just did, I will post some stats when I get enough hands. What about you?

I'll post mine in a bit, I have about 6000 omaha hands this month and up about $700

Check that, $1200

I'll add something here. I am an pl hilo player, so here is my input.


A2xx, A3xx with a suited ace is a VERY POWERFUL HAND. I have won so much with this hand. If you flop the flush draw and at least 1 low card I pot it all the way through. On the turn if you don't improve you can check, but you want to get the pot huge. This way if the river hits and you miss your draws, you can drop your hand, but if your draws hit, you are able to push all your chips into the middle. I absolutly PUNISH players just on a low draw or just on a made high hand.

Also.

What is the difference between

10s9s8c7c and

10s9c8d7h

?


ALMOST NOTHING. You aren't betting for you 10 high flush anyways

Doggz brought up the weakness of the suited cards in hands like T987 double suited. This is an important point, but has to be looked at in context. This hand is listed by many as a premium hand, and treated by many as only a good hand, and both are correct, but in only in the right circumstances. This is a premium hand against good, tight pre-flop players. If you can raise the pot and isolate one player, odds are your flush will be good against that one player if you hit it. In fact the odds are very good ... you will usually have the best hand with the flush. In this case, T987 double suited is a premium hand. On the other hand, if you are playing against loose fish and a raise will be called by 3 or more people, T987 is just a good hand ... you will be playing for straights and boats, and should consider your flushes nearly useless.

This is a common phenomenon in omaha. At a good table, where the typical player plays less than 20% of the hands, you will usually be heads up or 3 handed to see the flop. Often there will be no flop. Any flush is a good hand, a set is a good hand. You don't need as much to win because only 1 or 2 other people saw the flop. Aces are much more powerful here than at a loose table because you can win unimproved and more often than you might think.

zenbitz asked why raise pre-flop if you will usually miss and fold. In PL omaha you must raise the best hands pre-flop to build the pot. When you hit you can bet more and extract more value. Also, although super premium hands tend to miss as much as any others, the reason they are super premium is that when you hit, its usually the nuts or to the nuts.

Here's another thing to watchout for in Omaha ... not so much limit, but definitely PL: The Freeroll.

Let's say you have AsKdTs9d. A truly excellent starting hand. You raise, you are raised back and call ...

the flop comes:

Qc Jh Tc

The nuts! You bet the pot, are raised, re-raise all-in and are called. All the money's in the pot with the nuts, what more can you ask for.

the turn and river:

7d 4c

The showdown:

you show A high straight

other guy: AcKhQhJc: A high flush

you lose your stack. You just got freerolled.

But you say, I did the right thing and got my money in the middle with the best of it ... not just the best of it, the nuts. And even if the other guy has a flush draw, over 2/3 of the time he won't get it so I'm +EV. Unfortunately, this is Omaha, not Hold'em, and you made a -EV play against a good player. Against a good player with a QJT board, if that player raises on the flop, you can bet your stack hes got the AK. All you can do is split, and if he's got a flush draw, which if he's a good player he does, its best case break even and lose the rake, worst case lose your stack.

The key here is ... the nuts on the flop isnt always a good hand. Many nuts on the flop need a secondary draw to be playable. Obviously quads and hands like Aces full are usually good and should be played aggressively, but be damned carefull with your straights, sets, and little boats.

So, what do you do? You can't be sure the guy is freerolling, but PL Omaha is a game of picking your spots. You want to take the other guys stack more often than they take yours. It can be very hard to spot when you are being freerolled, but if you can do it, you will lose your stack much less.

In this case, I would probably check the flop, and think hard before calling a pot bet, probably folding to a good, tight player. If I bet the flop and am raised back the pot, it depends on the stacks and what's in the pot ... it sucks, but you are hoping you hold out to tie, and are calling only with the pot odds to lose less getting freerolled than if you fold.


In limit Omaha, you probably wouldnt fold these hands, but also wouldnt play too aggressively ... maybe just calling down.

In Hold'em its rare enough to just about ignore, but just as much fun when you freeroll someone else!

I usually play Omaha in live games and not online, and here are my additional 2 cents

1. The transition from Holdem to Omaha (or vice versa) is not trivial, and the main issue is the strength of the hand needed to win. People who usually play holdem have a tough time figuring this is a game of nuts - TPTK after the flop is a crappy hand.

2. Unless it is a super tight game it is very hard to win an unimproved hand, even if yuo hold AA, KK preflop.

3. In case there are more then 3 people in the hand do not chase two pair - it is pretty hard to improve (4 outs) and chances are somebody has a set/str8 or better