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|~|ypermegachi
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05-30-2005, 12:39 PM
Post subject: AKs in UTG+1 vs UTG raise
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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FTR was down yesturday, so i posted on 2+2 instead.
anywho, most of what i have to say in in their thread, but most of them are too stubborn in their ways to even consider my alternative play. of course, they don't state their reasons either, and the one person who gave their reason is under a predefined assumption, which is biased.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&o=14&fpart=1
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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I think it is a big mistake to not 3-bet. I definately want to isolate the one opponent and represent a big hand so I can often win the pot without improving.
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stuck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 586
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I'm not saying your logic doesn't have valid points, but I'm still always 3-betting here. You have shitty position on the rest of the field and if you get a number of other cold-callers like you wanted, you're giving the blinds great odds to call and close the action with trash, which you don't want.
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If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nehmer
I think it is a big mistake to not 3-bet. I definately want to isolate the one opponent and represent a big hand so I can often win the pot without improving.
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why would you rather win a small pot from one opponent, who might call down, instead of a big pot with 5 people calling to the river?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by stuck
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why wouldn't i want trash hands coming in?
btw, thanx dwarfy and stinkybeaver for the support...lol
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
why would you rather win a small pot from one opponent, who might call down, instead of a big pot with 5 people calling to the river?
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Because we don't want to give these people proper odds to cold call for 2 bets, get a lucky flop, have a big enough pot to correctly call down and catch their draw. I understand your reasoning for wanting a big pot with a premium hand, but I LOVE when UTG raises and I'm next with AKs. I think the play you are trying to make is EXTREMELY situational based on the players to act behind you. I say extremely because there are still 6 players to act behind and we can't know that enough of them will coldcall to make our initial cold call profitable.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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This idea makes a lot more sense with JTs than AKs, though I'd probably muck JTs unless there were frequently two or more cold callers behind. AKs has showdown value unimproved vs a single opponent and dominates a couple of hands that would raise UTG.
There's a balance between the value that you give up by allowing other players in and the value that you gain by letting them finance your draw (AKs will need to improve more often as the field gets larger).
Three other reasons to three-bet: 1) you may get some customers willing to cold call three bets (you'll need fewer to build a big pot at three bets), 2) the more cold callers there are behind you, the wider the range of hands that can correctly cold call from late position, and 3) you give UTG the opportunity to call or cap, which will give you some further information about his hand.
JMO
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Poker is freedom
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stuck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 586
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by stuck
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why wouldn't i want trash hands coming in?
btw, thanx dwarfy and stinkybeaver for the support...lol |
I'm not not trying to trash you here, don't worry. It's a good point, and I do see the merits of such thinking.
It's not that you don't want trash hands to call, it's that you don't want to give them proper odds to call. You also get more information if someone caps from LP or or UTG caps. I mainly just think that slowplaying AK is very situational and especially tricky from EP. I certainly would not do it in that situation with AKo, though suited does help. You certainly lose a lot of fold equity by not 3-betting there, though.
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If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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this is an interesting play since AKs has a lot of multiway potential. since most players will only raise a few hands UTG (AA/KK/AKs/AKo/QQ/JJ), you have to figure your edge is pretty small or nonexistent if you raise to get heads up. by letting more players in, you increase the pot odds for yourself to draw to a nut straight or flush. and with less invested, it will be easier to let go if you completely miss the flop, whereas in a heads up situation you will almost feel obligated to keep firing away with your ace high.
it's sad to see how utterly closed minded the reactions on 2+2 tend to be.
ChezJ
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