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AKo in sb

  
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 05-16-2006, 02:45 PM     Post subject: AKo in sb #1 (permalink)  
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 Sorry i don't have an actual HH, i thought i emailed it but it didn't show up.

Anyways, i'm in the sb with AKo, one person raises in early position, 3 people call him. I raise. First off, is the raise correct?

everyone calls, 5 people to the flop. K107 rainbow. I bet out, mid position guy raises, button reraises.

Now what do i do from here? Call down, fold?
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littleogre
Old 05-16-2006, 03:57 PM #2 (permalink)  

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 Pre flop yes the raise is correct imo. On the flop i would fold. With 5 limpers and a raise and reraise i don't think that tptk is good.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-16-2006, 04:12 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I think it depends on reads from your opponent, but I think capping is the correct play. TPTK is a pretty decent hand here. Also, with 5 people in this pot, i believe going for the check/raise to be the correct play.

Would you fold AA here to a raise and a reraise? I say cap while the betting is still cheap and if it gets hectic on the turn then you can let it go.


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silverfist
Old 05-16-2006, 06:05 PM #4 (permalink)  
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You should almost certainly checkraise this flop here. You want to drive out general silliness like bottom pair or gutshots that have a chance to draw out on you.

If you check, and get a bet-raise behind you, 3-bet if you think you can drive anyone out, but otherwise just call it down. A raise or a 3-bet could easily mean AQ. Just call from that point on, unless people start raising each other on the turn. If you hit your ace, go back to raising.
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euphoricism
Old 05-16-2006, 06:15 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Meh.

threebetting preflop and checking the flop is generally not the greatest idea. It tables your hand. Everyone knows you have QQ+ or AK.

With five people in the pot, it is likely someone hit something, and someone will bet anyway. However, is it the guy who originially opened the pot in EP? Because then c/r'ng isn't really useful to you -- its just pot-building.

I think leading and hoping to be raised is your best bet, due to the EP raiser, and your preflop action.
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euphoricism
Old 05-16-2006, 06:16 PM #6 (permalink)  
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And since you _were_ raised, you cap.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-16-2006, 06:48 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
It tables your hand. Everyone knows you have QQ+ or AK.
considering they call anyway and pay you off, how is this a bad thing?


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IowaSkinsFan
Old 05-16-2006, 10:00 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 So i should cap on the flop!? It seems a little clear that i'm probably beaten after the reraise, or is it not?

So are you guys saying just call down after the flop?
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silverfist
Old 05-16-2006, 10:15 PM #9 (permalink)  
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You probably are beaten, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't cap (once you miss the check-raise that is)

You're almost certainly going to call this one down, so you want everybody passive. First, you want to drive out the mid position guy. He may have an ace, and any ace has three outs twice to hit its kicker. If you're ahead, him hitting a kicker when you could have gotten rid of him is a disaster. Second, once you've capped the flop, you don't have to worry about getting in the middle of a raising war between the other two. Unless they both have sets or something, you can call this one down for 2 BBs. Third, if you are behind and drawing, you want to draw as cheaply as possible.

You can't really fold a hit with AK on the flop to agression on the flop. The turn is a different story. Staying aggressive allows you to show this down as cheaply as possible.

You don't have to probably be ahead to call this thing down. If you can cap then call down for a total of 3bbs of investment, you only need to be ahead less than 25% of the time. That doesn't even count the possibility of hitting the ace on the turn or river.
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thenonsequitur
Old 05-16-2006, 10:33 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfist
You don't have to probably be ahead to call this thing down. If you can cap then call down for a total of 3bbs of investment, you only need to be ahead less than 25% of the time. That doesn't even count the possibility of hitting the ace on the turn or river.
Silverfist, would you mind showing your work here? Not that I don't agree with you. I d0--your explanation makes a lot of sense, and intuitively, I would cap here too. But I wouldn't be able to put a figure on it (i.e. 25%). So I just think it would be informative to see the math and logic process behind the 25% figure.
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silverfist
Old 05-16-2006, 10:38 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Sure. There are 15 SBs before the flop, plus the bet, the raise and the reraise for 21 SBs total. Oops - just realise a cap would take 3 bets. Okay, still the same conclusion

So, there's 21 SBs total to win, and 7 sbs to cap and call it down. Plus, if both players call all the way, there's 8 more SBs to win. So, you're risking 7 sbs to win 29 sbs. Actually, my number was conservative. You'd need to win less than 20% of the time for this to be profitiable.

I'd say the chance you get knocked out on the turn plus and the chance you hit the ace and beat KT about cancel each other out, so let's say 20%.

(Edit) I looked around and found this hand, which is an example of someone with AK slowing me down after I flop a big two pair. Since he was going to call this one down, anyway, his play saved him quite a bit of money. In retrospect, I should have known what he was up to, but flop caps really are that scary:

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Silverfist is UTG+1 with K, Q.
1 fold, Silverfist calls, UTG+2 raises, 4 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, Silverfist calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) K, Q, 3 (4 players)
BB checks, Silverfist bets, UTG+2 raises, Button folds, BB calls, Silverfist 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, BB calls, Silverfist calls.

Turn: (10.20 BB) 4 (3 players)
BB checks, Silverfist checks, UTG+2 bets, BB calls, Silverfist calls.

River: (13.20 BB) J (3 players)
BB checks, Silverfist checks, UTG+2 checks.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 05-17-2006, 01:50 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 I didn't have position though, i'd have to risk getting raised every street. By calling instead of capping, aren't i making sure the bets stay at a minimum?
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