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asdpikas

09-19-2008, 03:16 PM Post subject: AK river

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

villain is loose and fishy
2/4 Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($73.50)
UTG 1 ($106.50)
Hero ($69.00)
BTN ($105.00)
SB ($136.39)
BB ($207.75)

Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 6 players) Hero is CO

2 folds, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls, 1 fold

Flop:

(7.0 SB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, BTN folds

Turn:

(4.5 BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls

River:

(8.5 BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero ?

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DrivingDog

09-19-2008, 03:51 PM Post subject: Re: AK river

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

2 folds, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls, 1 fold

Flop:

(7.0 SB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, BTN folds

Turn:

(4.5 BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls

River:

(8.5 BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero ?

Fnord will say, "Pay him off then go play some NL."

I say let it go. A river c/r is almost never a bluff at these limits.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

asdpikas

09-19-2008, 03:59 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,056

i am getting 11.5-1
Can you really fold to those odds?

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

09-19-2008, 04:11 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Anyone who folds this river is a donk. There is no way you should ever fold here. If you lose here ten times and on the eleventh time you find someone with JT who was actually looking for the king, you will have profited.

DrivingDog

09-19-2008, 06:09 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Location: UK

Posts: 923

Lol at him raising JT.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

09-19-2008, 06:12 PM

#6 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Lol at him raising JT.

Not for value, but as "lol that river card is scary, let me check it down"
"shit he has me beat"
"I'll raise so he thinks I have a straight or flush"

DrivingDog

09-19-2008, 06:19 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Location: UK

Posts: 923

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdpikas

i am getting 11.5-1
Can you really fold to those odds?

every draw just got there: FD. KJ. QT, AT. If the board were drier I'd be inclined to call.

Not saying it's an easy fold, obv. not. Just my sense is that we're beat 95% of the time here against a LP villian.

If it makes you sleep better at night, call.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

09-19-2008, 06:21 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Wouldn't that just make it the best time for a c/r bluff then? This is 6max. People are crazy in 6max. In full ring you may have a point.

DrivingDog

09-19-2008, 06:44 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Wouldn't that just make it the best time for a c/r bluff then? This is 6max. People are crazy in 6max. In full ring you may have a point.

It's only a good time to bluff against guys like me who are capable of making a sick fold now and then. Against the other 99% of the players, it's more like the worst time for a bluff because: a) your opponent would almost never try to value bet anything lower that TP there; and b) none of them will fold TP for one more bet in a big pot.

OTOH, it's a great time for villian to c/r two pair or better because: a) if his opponent doesn't have at least TP he'll be hard pressed to call a river donk; and b) if his opponent does have TP and bets, he'll pay off the c/r because that's what guys with TP do.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

09-19-2008, 08:38 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Yes, but any way you look at it, you have to be SO sure that your hand is no good.
First of all, you have to be 100% sure that he won't do this with AJ. And you can't be that sure. He might think AJo is the nuts for all you know.
In fact, you have the pot odds to hope for a split if he does this with AK. If you split 20% of the time and lose 80%, you still make money.

In fact, for 11.5 to 1 he might have 85o often enough.

bigspenda73

09-19-2008, 09:42 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

people won't bluff c/r against your line here

Chopper

09-21-2008, 03:17 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i dont think the c/r is a bluff....ever. not from this villain on this board.

that said, i pay it off because i usually dont catch myself fast enough and when i do, i tell myself, "calling this raise in this pot isnt the biggest mistake in the world."

but, it really comes down to the fact that i cant make the laydown here. hmmmm, i wonder why dog is a better player than i am.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

09-21-2008, 04:01 AM

#13 (permalink)

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You can't say "ever" because someone might think they have a straight when they don't. Might misclick raise instead of call, etc.

while that happens less than 9% of the time, you basically can't fold any pot over 20BB even if you have ace high

dsaxton

09-21-2008, 04:12 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

you basically can't fold any pot over 20BB even if you have ace high

What are you talking about?

The river is probably a fold, but it's quite close. You will once in a blue moon run into a player making some silly raise with just top pair, but this doesn't happen often enough to justify a call, in my opinion.

09-21-2008, 05:21 AM

#15 (permalink)

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You know what, if you're going to fold in that spot you might as well check behind

nutsinho

09-21-2008, 05:35 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,280

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

You know what, if you're going to fold in that spot you might as well check behind

no!

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

Fnord

09-21-2008, 06:10 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Bet/Fold on the river is find.
Check behind isn't terrible but probably not optimal. It depends on how much your opponent sucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

DrivingDog

09-21-2008, 04:59 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Location: UK

Posts: 923

Checking behind is a bit feeble imo. He'll pay you off with a worse Ace and Qx, and maybe even some junk like KT, JT. Those make up much more of his range than the hands that just pulled ahead.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

asdpikas

09-21-2008, 05:15 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,056

def value bet river, imo.
tough c/r there, but i dont think it even crosses my mind to check behind.
As Dog says, most of the time i'll get paid by worse, plus most of the better hands wont even c/r w the 3broadways/3flush there.
I'm a shodown monkey, so i pay off the c/r.
Wanted to see your opinion on my line and the c/r payoff, but the river bet is standard i think

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

09-22-2008, 01:42 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

The question is, if I'm the other player in the hand, are you still folding to the river c/r?

Chopper

09-22-2008, 02:04 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

The question is, if I'm the other player in the hand, are you still folding to the river c/r?

now THIS is what i like about discussions. the old role reversal. we should be dissecting hands from both positions more often.

i know you arent asking me, specifically, but i wouldnt fold to the river c/r unless my villain is a super-chaser. but, i still lose my fair share of rivers here....i just feel that the one bet payoff is such a small mistake...i have many larger leaks to plug.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

DrivingDog

09-22-2008, 02:10 AM

#22 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

The question is, if I'm the other player in the hand, are you still folding to the river c/r?

If I think villian is capable of a semi-plausible bluff c/r on the river I'm glad to b/c this because I'll still be ahead most of the time.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

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