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AK, getting information on the flop

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spoonitnow

04-19-2006, 12:37 AM Post subject: AK, getting information on the flop

#1 (permalink)

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PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A

, K

.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: (15.40 SB) 7

, 8

, A

(5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 folds, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.70 BB) 7

(3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, Button folds, UTG calls.

River: (16.70 BB) 2

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 18.70 BB

I changed this HH just a little to serve my purpose, but here is a question. It's came up multiple times in the threads that I've read that raising/3-betting on the flop when the bets are still small can give you a better idea of where you stand and what you're up against and save you money on later streets when the bets are big.

My question is this: After the preflop action, on this flop I think Hero needs to be concerned about if he's up against AA or not. Does 3-betting the flop give Hero the information he needs here, and is that why he proceeds to be aggressive on the turn and river?

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euphoricism

04-19-2006, 01:05 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Quote:

After the preflop action, on this flop I think Hero needs to be concerned about if he's up against AA or not.

No he doesn't. You cant narrow down villains range that well unless he has a 3% PFR and only raises AA and KK.

A) Our opponent limp-reraised UTG... Often AA, KK, lesser QQ. Depending on the opponent, it is often other random suited junk hands. It can also be a misclick (done it more times than I care to mention...)

B) Our opponent check-raised the flop. AA does not do this. AA waits for the turn.

C) Our opponent stop-n-go'd the turn when the board paired. AA could do this, but in light of point B, its unlikely. UTG is also unlikely to have a 7 due to point A and he is more likely to check raise than to lead.

If it was my turn in hero's spot on the turn, I like the raise as well. Its also for information -- if he bet/threebets, I'm not paying off a river without massively improving.

No more than 3 bets total on the turn+river without a near-nut hand is a good rule to live by.

I think UTG might have QQ-KK, might have some sort of weaker A, maybe even AK (though AK rarely limp 3bets.) and slightly less often UTG might hold complete trash (though his river check/call casts doubt)

In short: Nope, if he shows AA here, I'm laughing at him for being functionally retarded, and thanking him for saving me a good chunk of change.

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elipsesjeff

04-19-2006, 01:30 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

f it was my turn in hero's spot on the turn, I like the raise as well. Its also for information -- if he bet/threebets, I'm not paying off a river without massively improving.

No more than 3 bets total on the turn+river without a near-nut hand is a good rule to live by.

I agree with Euphoricism except one major distinction: Pot Size. At a pot nearly 20 BB, I'm seeing a showdown, especially HU.

And a little tidbit, I'm capping this preflop.

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|~|ypermegachi

04-19-2006, 03:39 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

And a little tidbit, I'm capping this preflop.

now that's what i call pushing the smallest of smallest edges! sure sure, AK is like the 3rd or 4th best hand, but it's still up against 4 others with very bad position. meh, woulda worked out for this hand.

elipsesjeff

04-19-2006, 03:46 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

And a little tidbit, I'm capping this preflop.

You've got so much equity with AK that its an auto cap everytime, even OOP.

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euphoricism

04-19-2006, 12:48 PM

#6 (permalink)

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At full ring, less so.

But I like a cap because of

UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

If we even fold one of those with a cap, it'd be worth it.

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spoonitnow

04-19-2006, 09:13 PM

#7 (permalink)

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So what I'm getting is that in this hand, the most critical street is the turn instead of the flop?

elipsesjeff

04-19-2006, 10:53 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

The raise is for value, not to reduce the field. They cold-called once, they're going to do it again.

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euphoricism

04-20-2006, 12:15 AM

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Depends. In general, can you protect your hand by just calling here and raising the flop? Do the two values cancel each other? Is there more value in one than the other?

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elipsesjeff

04-20-2006, 01:50 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Depends. In general, can you protect your hand by just calling here and raising the flop? Do the two values cancel each other? Is there more value in one than the other?

The pot is 15 SB right now on the flop, they have odds to call a raise with a gutshot so there is no way they can fold. build that pot.

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Fnord

04-20-2006, 08:08 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Cap it off pre-flop.

Turn is a must-raise because it's 3-way. It looks like you're against AK/AQ here (given the stakes I expect to see AJ/AT a lot too) and the 7 was a good turn card fo you. Make the Button pony up to stay in your pot. If UTG has Aces, I'm paying him off because the pot is too big to save bets.

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spoonitnow

04-20-2006, 09:25 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Thank you guys for the feedback

UTG actually had TT here. Nice eh?

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AK, getting information on the flop

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