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gobbledygeek
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05-08-2006, 07:38 PM
Post subject: AJo early position
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19
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The drawback with playing in the casino is I can't quite remember the exact way the hands were played in order to post them later for comments. Do other casino players take notes on their hands while they can remember them?
Anyways, I guess at how the hand was played:
Dealt: AJo, I think early position so I don't raise.
Flop: Q J 7, no flush
I raise early position, get a few callers.
Turn: Q J 7 10, no flush
I think I checked at this point and then called a raise. Me and two or three others in the hand still.
River: Q J 7 10 A, no flush
I check, one bet, one caller, I call.
Comments?
The one thing I definitely remember about that hand is that the river caller had KK all along and therefore had the nuts. Why in the world would he only call the initial river bet instead of raising? The only thing I could think of is that there was still one person (me) to call after him (or maybe one other person), so maybe he was afraid a raise would scare them off? This guy had won a bunch of money and would leave the table soon with at least 3 or 4 times what he started with, so he wasn't completely retarded. Or was he? Is this game total luck or what?
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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AJo Early? pfft! you should raise.
you BET not RAISE when you're first in postflop, please get the terminology right.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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AJo from UTG was one of my biggest long term money losers. I switched from raising it every time to limping it more often and it became much easier for me.
Live, I think I raise this UTG every time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
AJo from UTG was one of my biggest long term money losers. I switched from raising it every time to limping it more often and it became much easier for me.
Live, I think I raise this UTG every time.
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I think this is backwards.
Online if I limp UTG I'm more likely to get iso-raised raised. In a live game, I can see a flop, get free/cheap turns when I miss, get all sorts of stupid calls when I hit and more often get away from my hand when they catch up.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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If you were to search the boards you'd find a good argument we had about a year ago concerning AJo and KQo UTG. I recommend searching for it as if I remember it was a good thread between Fnord and I.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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I did a few searches for AJo and KQo UTG, and I don't think I found the thread you were talking about. I did however find three that go into some detail on this issue:
How should I play KQo and AJo from early position? (Sep 2005)
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=19713
Limping more, making more money (Mar 2005)
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=8059
Early Position Leaks (Feb 2005)
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=7026
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
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The link titled "Early Position Leaks" is exactly the one I was talking about. Thank you thenonsequitur.
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gobbledygeek
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19
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Thanks for the links.
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koolmoe
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05-09-2006, 05:18 PM
Post subject: Re: AJo early position
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#9 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
The one thing I definitely remember about that hand is that the river caller had KK all along and therefore had the nuts. Why in the world would he only call the initial river bet instead of raising? The only thing I could think of is that there was still one person (me) to call after him (or maybe one other person), so maybe he was afraid a raise would scare them off? This guy had won a bunch of money and would leave the table soon with at least 3 or 4 times what he started with, so he wasn't completely retarded. Or was he? Is this game total luck or what?
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With four to the straight on the board, he will often make more by just calling because the initial bettor will sometimes to frequently have a K (depending on the passiveness of the player), in which case raising will just force other players out and not win any more money for the KK hand. Going for overcalls is often a good idea on a scary board like that.
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Poker is freedom
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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I dont like calling here at all if I were KK. I may raise a worse hand out but I want to give myself an opportunity to win the most and there might be a chance I can freeroll with another opponent.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I dont like calling here at all if I were KK. I may raise a worse hand out but I want to give myself an opportunity to win the most and there might be a chance I can freeroll with another opponent.
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Whatever. I'm not trying to suggest that it is an optimal strategy nor how I would necessarily play it. I'm trying to answer the question that the OP asked by pointing out that there could be some thought behind KK's play.
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Poker is freedom
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
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Then, how would you play it?
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koolmoe
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Full House
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Depends on my reads. The more aggressive the river bettor is, the more likely I am to raise. The more I know the guy behind me likes to call, the more likely I am to raise.
If the river bettor won't lead into that board without a K, then I am calling if the player behind me is weak. The vast majority of LL live players don't fold on the river unless their draw is busted, but those that will fold can usually do so when the board is four to a flush or straight.
If the player behind me is a calling station, then I am raising no matter what and hoping for a three bet from the EP player.
At 2/4 live, I think the best play is to raise because you will get calls with (much) worse hands. But to answer this question:
Quote:
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This guy had won a bunch of money and would leave the table soon with at least 3 or 4 times what he started with, so he wasn't completely retarded. Or was he? Is this game total luck or what?
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I would say that not seeing him raise that river doesn't necessarily mean that he's completely retarded. There is a reason for going for the overcall, even if it is not optimal given the situation.
And no, the game is not one of total luck.
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Poker is freedom
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silverfist
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05-11-2006, 01:05 AM
Post subject: Re: AJo early position
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#14 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 341
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
The drawback with playing in the casino is I can't quite remember the exact way the hands were played in order to post them later for comments. Do other casino players take notes on their hands while they can remember them?
Anyways, I guess at how the hand was played:
Dealt: AJo, I think early position so I don't raise.
Flop: Q J 7, no flush
I raise early position, get a few callers.
Turn: Q J 7 10, no flush
I think I checked at this point and then called a raise. Me and two or three others in the hand still.
River: Q J 7 10 A, no flush
I check, one bet, one caller, I call.
Comments?
The one thing I definitely remember about that hand is that the river caller had KK all along and therefore had the nuts. Why in the world would he only call the initial river bet instead of raising? The only thing I could think of is that there was still one person (me) to call after him (or maybe one other person), so maybe he was afraid a raise would scare them off? This guy had won a bunch of money and would leave the table soon with at least 3 or 4 times what he started with, so he wasn't completely retarded. Or was he? Is this game total luck or what?
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AJo has been a major money loser for me as well. Every time I hit, someone seems to outdraw me. I'm not sure if it's variance, but I've lost 14 BBs in 51 tries with AJo and 7 BBs in 13 tries with AJs.
I've started limping with AJo, even in late position. It brings in the ace-raggers (who are your main profit with this hand) while preventing you from getting iso-raised, which sucks, by the way. If you hit the jack, you're likely behind queens or kings. If you hit the ace, you're likely behind AK. Either way, you're going to have to see the river, which means losing even more money.
I really don't like your turn play here. You're dead to any queen, and even if you hit your ace, you're now dead to any king. If you hit your jack, you're dead to JT or QJ, likely hands against limpers. I'd just get the heck out of there after that T hit.
If anything, you should consider check-raising that flop. It cleans up the muck and gives you a nice draw to two pair or trips, and perhaps even the best hand. Don't overcall with it, though. Check-raise one person, though. If you get a bettor and a caller, you're likely toast.
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Shark Bait
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05-11-2006, 02:00 AM
Post subject: Re: AJo early position
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#15 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by silverfist
AJo has been a major money loser for me as well. Every time I hit, someone seems to outdraw me. I'm not sure if it's variance, but I've lost 14 BBs in 51 tries with AJo and 7 BBs in 13 tries with AJs.
I've started limping with AJo, even in late position. It brings in the ace-raggers (who are your main profit with this hand) while preventing you from getting iso-raised, which sucks, by the way. If you hit the jack, you're likely behind queens or kings. If you hit the ace, you're likely behind AK. Either way, you're going to have to see the river, which means losing even more money.
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weak-tight ever come to mind?
AJo and AJs are good hands. Don't let a few beats prevent you from playing them strong.
my stats over 62k hands:
AJo
570 times
won 38.42%
+0.25BB/hand
AJs
198 times
won 53.54%
+0.80BB/hand
FYI, I fold AJo to a raise and raise it in MP and LP, and almost never 3 bet.
AJs I will cold call with (shhh...don't tell anyone) or 3-bet depending on the raiser. I will raise with it in any position.
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