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dumbmrblah
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06-03-2006, 04:42 AM
Post subject: AJ offsuit
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 10
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2/4 Hold Em, Table is mostly loose passive.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, MP+1 calls,
Hero raises with  
CO folds (after posting), Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, MP+1 calls.
Flop:   
Everyone checks to Hero, Hero checks.
Turn: 
Everyone checks to Hero, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP folds, MP+1 calls.
River: 
MP+1 checks, Hero checks.
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Harry
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Philly
Posts: 722
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I would've bet each street when it was checked to me.
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Harry
I would've bet each street when it was checked to me.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Harry
I would've bet each street when it was checked to me.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Harry
I would've bet each street when it was checked to me.
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Just thought I'd jump on the wagon too. Even 5-way there is a good chance you still have the best hand. It's a good thing to try to get any backdoor draws to fold to protect A and J outs, and to get any hand that missed the flop to fold to protect the A-high hand. Getting any single heart to fold is good, since the Ah sets up a flush draw if it falls on the turn. You want to get QJ, JT, QT to fold so they don't get a straight draw if an A falls.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I would bet the flop and turn every day and twice on sunday when it was checked to me. If i don't pair by the river wether i check or bet depends on my read of the other player.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I don't hate the flop check. I do think the river is an easy value bet.
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dumbmrblah
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 10
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Thanks for the input all. It seems like the consensus is that I misplayed the hand badly, so I figure I'll lay out my thought process and you can tell me where I went wrong.
On the flop I didn't really want to bet because I felt everyone wasn't gonna fold. If anyone has a five they're probably calling, if anyone has a king or two hearts or even a pocket pair over five then they're definitely calling. Chances are none of them would bet out either, and they all could just call rather than reraise. There's not much point in doing it to get a free card because I'm better off just taking this free card.
Basically I think there's almost no chance I fold everyone. I'm gonna have to improve to win this hand, and if I do improve then the chance that anyone who isn't ahead of me right now will beat my pair of aces or jacks is very slim. With two overcards I'm not that worried about someone hitting, say, a nine on the turn, because if I hit a jack on the river I'm still fine. The only thing I'm worried about is someone with say A5, or kx, and they are gonna call me anyway. I don't feel like driving people out will really drive my equity up any. The only benefit I'd get is driving out anyone holding a queen just in case a queen and a jack comes, but I'm not really concerned about that possibility.
On the river, I decided not to value bet because I put villain on either a king or a flush draw (with an outside chance of another ace). I figure he's probably not calling with a busted flush draw, but he'll definitely call with a king. He could have the king but been scared of the flush on the turn so avoided re-raising. I just don't see anything but a king, another ace, or a flush draw calling this bet, but then again I could certainly be wrong.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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They dont know if you have a K. You raised preflop, its fairly likely you do, and i'd expect a large majority of the players left to fold.
Bet the flop.
From there, I wouldn't fault you for auto-checking through the turn, no matter what it is, and auto-calling on the river if you even slightly improve overall (hit an A or J)
Let me say again, if the turn is an A, as it was here, I might check through anyway.
A) You might be behind a K, if so you save yourself some money while still going to showdown with a decent hand
B) You might be behind the flush, if so you save yourself some money while still going to showdown with a decent hand
C) Someone might stab bluff into you on the river, and you'll gain a bet you wouldn't have -- like someone with a weaker A, or someone who just thinks they can pick up the pot.
Overall, I think this is a winning line.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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One thing I don't see in any comments is the preflop play. After 3 limpers, it is not a bad play to raise preflop, but the better play with A,Jo is to limp now and wait for the flop. You may have the best hand now, but this hand is more likely to have reverse implied odds since you will hit the A or the J for TPTK most of the time as the best hand, leaving you punish other draws. Therefore, if you keep the pot small now, you have a better chance of putting drawing hands at a disadvantage post flop when you hit your hand. By raising, the limpers are not folding, and you give drawing hands the odds to peel the flop in most cases. However, it is very close between the two, just something to think about.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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6high
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 136
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I don't hate the flop check. I do think the river is an easy value bet.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dumbmrblah
Thanks for the input all. It seems like the consensus is that I misplayed the hand badly, so I figure I'll lay out my thought process and you can tell me where I went wrong.
On the flop I didn't really want to bet because I felt everyone wasn't gonna fold. If anyone has a five they're probably calling, if anyone has a king or two hearts or even a pocket pair over five then they're definitely calling. Chances are none of them would bet out either, and they all could just call rather than reraise. There's not much point in doing it to get a free card because I'm better off just taking this free card.
Basically I think there's almost no chance I fold everyone. I'm gonna have to improve to win this hand, and if I do improve then the chance that anyone who isn't ahead of me right now will beat my pair of aces or jacks is very slim. With two overcards I'm not that worried about someone hitting, say, a nine on the turn, because if I hit a jack on the river I'm still fine. The only thing I'm worried about is someone with say A5, or kx, and they are gonna call me anyway. I don't feel like driving people out will really drive my equity up any. The only benefit I'd get is driving out anyone holding a queen just in case a queen and a jack comes, but I'm not really concerned about that possibility.
On the river, I decided not to value bet because I put villain on either a king or a flush draw (with an outside chance of another ace). I figure he's probably not calling with a busted flush draw, but he'll definitely call with a king. He could have the king but been scared of the flush on the turn so avoided re-raising. I just don't see anything but a king, another ace, or a flush draw calling this bet, but then again I could certainly be wrong.
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It sounds to me like you over estimated the chances of someone having a king. You also underestimated peoples ability to call when they are beaten. On the river you say they will not call with a busted flush draw and thats probably true. It's also likely to be true that they will call with trip kings. Were i disagree with you is i think there caling range is much wider then just trip kings. Do you think say a pair of wired 9s or 10's will fold.?Not asking if you think they should fold i'm asking if you think they will fold. I just think you need to bet and give them a chance make a mistake of calling with a worst hand. Also leading out actually saves you money when you are behind.
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