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Aggressively played draw in position vs "tag"

  
 
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dsaxton
Old 02-07-2006, 01:53 AM     Post subject: Aggressively played draw in position vs "tag" #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with T, J.
3 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 3, 9, 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) T (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB
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ArcticKnight
Old 02-07-2006, 02:13 AM #2 (permalink)  
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odd pre-flop play for a TAG.

Don't see many TAGS who just complete the SB when it's folded around to them - most raise or fold on this.
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
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jmontis
Old 02-07-2006, 02:16 AM #3 (permalink)  
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this brings another question: how many outs do you need to make it worth pumping a draw heads up? Given your opponent may only have 1 pair or less
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-07-2006, 02:21 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmontis
this brings another question: how many outs do you need to make it worth pumping a draw heads up? Given your opponent may only have 1 pair or less
Well, its worth it if you can check/behind the turn when you don't improve. I don't mind his play, except his raise preflop, which won't accomplish anything.


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dsaxton
Old 02-07-2006, 03:20 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmontis
this brings another question: how many outs do you need to make it worth pumping a draw heads up? Given your opponent may only have 1 pair or less
Well, its worth it if you can check/behind the turn when you don't improve. I don't mind his play, except his raise preflop, which won't accomplish anything.
I figured J-10 suited was a favorite over a lot of hands players limp in this spot, and raising puts me in a position to bluff out the best hand if I miss and he hits.
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ArcticKnight
Old 02-07-2006, 04:52 AM #6 (permalink)  
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No real TAG (or good semi-loose player) is limping J10s here.. It's not strong enough to trap/limp with (like an AA, KK might be here HU against the BB), but it's far too strong a hand not to raise with.

With this type of hand he especially wants to rep higher cards than J10 so he can miss the flop with ovecards (esp Axx) and still try and push you out with a bet.
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dsaxton
Old 02-07-2006, 07:42 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
No real TAG (or good semi-loose player) is limping J10s here.. It's not strong enough to trap/limp with (like an AA, KK might be here HU against the BB), but it's far too strong a hand not to raise with.

With this type of hand he especially wants to rep higher cards than J10 so he can miss the flop with ovecards (esp Axx) and still try and push you out with a bet.
I'm not really understanding this post. I had J-10, and I was in the big blind in an unraised pot, so I couldn't limp.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-07-2006, 07:31 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Essentially, Tag could have a lot of holdings here preflop that he feels uncomfortable stealing with but still wants to see a flop. A common misconception (and error IMO) is that you have to be aggressive in the blinds to have the almighty "initiative." You forget that you already have initiative: you have position.

Also, you are not going to be able to bluff anyone off a hand in a blind stealing/defense situation, especially if they are a thinking player. Thus, your raise is purely for value here and you are more likely behind than ahead. Considering that any Ax, Kx, Qx or pocket pair hand is ahead of you at this point, I would much rather see the flop for as cheaply as possible without putting any more money in the pot.

Spewing from the blinds is a problem that too many people have and few people notice.


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ArcticKnight
Old 02-07-2006, 11:23 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
No real TAG (or good semi-loose player) is limping J10s here.. It's not strong enough to trap/limp with (like an AA, KK might be here HU against the BB), but it's far too strong a hand not to raise with.

With this type of hand he especially wants to rep higher cards than J10 so he can miss the flop with ovecards (esp Axx) and still try and push you out with a bet.
I'm not really understanding this post. I had J-10, and I was in the big blind in an unraised pot, so I couldn't limp.

Sorry...... I misread this as you putting him on J10s as well.

Disregard, my comments were based on that assumption.
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 02-08-2006, 01:33 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
No real TAG (or good semi-loose player) is limping J10s here.. It's not strong enough to trap/limp with (like an AA, KK might be here HU against the BB), but it's far too strong a hand not to raise with.

With this type of hand he especially wants to rep higher cards than J10 so he can miss the flop with ovecards (esp Axx) and still try and push you out with a bet.
I'm not really understanding this post. I had J-10, and I was in the big blind in an unraised pot, so I couldn't limp.

Sorry...... I misread this as you putting him on J10s as well.

Disregard, my comments were based on that assumption.
Even so, you bring up an important point. I will raise JTs here sometimes, since I can often assume that my opponent doesn't have a strong hand. If he is the typical type of player that is raising with any A,K or PP, and QJ/QT.. my hand is now MUCH better than his range, and therefore the raise from the big blind can be for value even with jack high.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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dsaxton
Old 02-10-2006, 06:07 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Essentially, Tag could have a lot of holdings here preflop that he feels uncomfortable stealing with but still wants to see a flop. A common misconception (and error IMO) is that you have to be aggressive in the blinds to have the almighty "initiative." You forget that you already have initiative: you have position.

Also, you are not going to be able to bluff anyone off a hand in a blind stealing/defense situation, especially if they are a thinking player. Thus, your raise is purely for value here and you are more likely behind than ahead. Considering that any Ax, Kx, Qx or pocket pair hand is ahead of you at this point, I would much rather see the flop for as cheaply as possible without putting any more money in the pot.

Spewing from the blinds is a problem that too many people have and few people notice.
I can concieve of a lot of situations where preflop aggression may earn me the pot with the worst hand. He limps with K-x, calls my raise, the flop comes A, x, x giving him bottom pair and he check-calls, then check-folds, fearing I have an ace. He flops a pair, check-calls, then check-folds to a scare card on the turn. I think it's somewhat silly to think my preflop aggression here cannot contribute to his folding the best hand after the flop. I don't think it's the case that players turn into complete calling stations just because they're only playing against the big blind.

Also, why do you suggest I probably have the worst hand here? If he is likely to raise any playable A or K high hand or pocket pair but will limp most others, then statistically it's much likelier than not that he can't beat J high.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-10-2006, 06:16 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 I dont know his standards but if he's a tag he's usually folding his bottom 70% of his hands here and raising his top 10-12 %, so his range is pretty conflicting with yours.

I shouldn't say this is a never raise, but its definately not a default raise by me. I think your table image helps here too.


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