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Gatlin Dan
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02-19-2005, 04:39 PM
Post subject: Adjusting strategy
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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I started with a 50 deposit at stars and worked my way through the .5/.10 game and the .25/.50 game. After having sufficient bankroll, I then made the switch to Party and start playing .5/1. Since making the move, I have had trouble making money. At the stars .25/.50 game, the play was tight enough that I would see a decent profit playing the best top pair hands and flopping sets with pocket pairs, but they are only marginally profitable if profitable at all since moving to Party. My hands played are still relatively small at the .5/1 level but the trend that seems to be developing is of concern to me.
The players at the party .5/1 are atrociously awful, even compared to the games at smaller limits at stars. The .5/1 party table plays lilke the .02/.04 at stars. It's frustrating that I can play and see good results in a tigher (this is still not a tight game, but significantly tighter than the majority of tables at the party .5/.1 level) game, but when I sit at the loosest tables, I can't seem to have a winning session.
How would you guys suggest I modify my strategy to play in these extremely loose games, or am I better off not playing them and continue playing the not quite so loose tables? I know there is a lot more money to be made at these looser tables, but I have been so far unable to find a way to do it. I'm at a loss when I raise with QQ from UTG only to have five coldcallers and an 8-way pot going into the flop.
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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I look for players/flop in the 40-50% range... Above that is too much variance, below that not enough action. That seems to be my sweet spot on stars anyway.
- sed
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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i think you already know the answer. as you discovered, TP's and pocket pairs do not hold up well against a full table of calling stations. what you want to do is pursue more (quality) draws that will get good odds multiway and pay you off humongously when they hit. suited connectors, especially high ones, are good as long you aren't paying too much to see the flop. AXs is extremely profitable at a loose table.
check out lowlimitholdem.com for basic advice, then read SSH for more advanced, TA concepts to turbocharge your profits.
ChezJ
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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This is so true. I had the same struggle at .5/1. You can drive yourself crazy having top pairs cracked over and over. I started making a concous effort to watch my implied odds for drawing hands.
The great thing aBout suited connectors, is that they are so easy to get away from if you miss. Compare this to KQo that loses all the time in multi-way pots, and is harder to fold...
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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cassette
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 92
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
check out lowlimitholdem.com for basic advice.
ChezJ
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What do people think of their starting hand requirements? Has anyone used these suggestions profitably?
Seems weird to not raise AK preflop in late position.
See them here: http://lowlimitholdem.com/StartingHands_4.htm
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Don't listen to them. Anyone suggesting to not raise AK in late position is fucking stupid. Just read SSH and you will KILL low limit games. Just expect more variance at the lower limits and make sure you are properly BRed.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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cassette
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 92
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Yeah, sounds good. I'll keep playing my game as I had been. Why change what's working?
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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I have checked out the low limit hold 'em website and have also read SSH several times. I'm actually in the process of reading it once again now. The starting hand requirements suggested by Low limit hold 'em's website seem a little loose to me. They play just about any suited connector. I really have trouble believing some of these can be played profitably.
For the most part I follow SSH recommendations for starting hands. It does seem like some of the hands that Skalansky says generally are not profitable to play actually could prove otherwise at .5/1 party tables, but since I don't play a lot of these marginal hands, I do not have any statistics to back this up. The biggest problem I am having with adjusting to the play at these tables is with what hands it is ok to call a raise with. I see all the time people raising with crap like A5s UTG and JT from MP. This has led to a difficulty in deciding how tight I have to be when calling raises. When the variety of hands that they could raise with increases, I find it harder to know what is a good enough starting had to enter the pot with.
the hardest thing I've found is how to play when you have a hand that you should be protecting. It seems like it doesn't matter if you wait for the turn to raise in a larger pot to try to proctect your hand, because most are going to call with the weak draw anyway. Is it possible that some of these tables are too fishy even for SSH?
One huge drawback I have noticed about playing at party over playing at stars is that they don't give you the % players seeing the flop. I do very well at tables were 50-55% see the flop but without this information I find it hard to find a good table while it is still a good table.
I had previously read Fnord's "why you suck at limit" thread, and I can't say that those are the reasons my sessions have poor results. I do know I need to play more suited connectors and one gappers, but finding a good balance of which ones to play from what positions and against how many players will prove to be quite challenging. Any suggestions on this?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
For the most part I follow SSH recommendations for starting hands. It does seem like some of the hands that Skalansky says generally are not profitable to play actually could prove otherwise at .5/1 party tables, but since I don't play a lot of these marginal hands, I do not have any statistics to back this up. The biggest problem I am having with adjusting to the play at these tables is with what hands it is ok to call a raise with. I see all the time people raising with crap like A5s UTG and JT from MP. This has led to a difficulty in deciding how tight I have to be when calling raises. When the variety of hands that they could raise with increases, I find it harder to know what is a good enough starting had to enter the pot with. |
Get Pokertracker and either playerview or gametime. It will tell you who is loose agressive so you can adjust how you play when they raise in front of you.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
One huge drawback I have noticed about playing at party over playing at stars is that they don't give you the % players seeing the flop. I do very well at tables were 50-55% see the flop but without this information I find it hard to find a good table while it is still a good table.
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Just look for biggest average pot size, same idea.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
I had previously read Fnord's "why you suck at limit" thread, and I can't say that those are the reasons my sessions have poor results. I do know I need to play more suited connectors and one gappers, but finding a good balance of which ones to play from what positions and against how many players will prove to be quite challenging. Any suggestions on this?
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I have been going out of my way to play SC's lately to try to win more big pots. I used to only play them in late position, but I've started to play them in middle position if passives are to my left. They just pay off too well when they hit. I also put Axs in this category. BTW--I usually don't play them at all if there aren't 5 or more players in the hand. Otherwise, it's too hard to build a big pot if you hit a draw, and you might be muscled off the hand due to an isolation play.
BTW--Fnord's thread has helped me immensely. I think one of Fnord's newbie mistakes deserves some addt'l thought: "You think playing over-cards is your biggest leak." When I first read this, I thought "what idiots think this?" But I checked my stats and saw how poorly KQo, KJo, KTo, QJ etc. do in early position, and I can now understand this point. These hands can be VERY unprofitable in EP if overplayed, thus a newbie might be tempted to think big cards are a leak (I did--and it was a leak in EP). You often are dominated and they are tough to lay down if you catch the flop. But I digress...
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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BTW--on monitoring your starting hands, I set up a filtered view on the main page of PT to show me hands played in EP or MP (not a blind) that are:
- unsuited (Ax, Kx)
- Small pairs
- KQo, KJo, QJo, KTo
This has helped me immensely.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
I had previously read Fnord's "why you suck at limit" thread, and I can't say that those are the reasons my sessions have poor results. I do know I need to play more suited connectors and one gappers, but finding a good balance of which ones to play from what positions and against how many players will prove to be quite challenging. Any suggestions on this?
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I have been going out of my way to play SC's lately to try to win more big pots. I used to only play them in late position, but I've started to play them in middle position if passives are to my left. They just pay off too well when they hit. I also put Axs in this category. BTW--I usually don't play them at all if there aren't 5 or more players in the hand. Otherwise, it's too hard to build a big pot if you hit a draw, and you might be muscled off the hand due to an isolation play.
BTW--Fnord's thread has helped me immensely. I think one of Fnord's newbie mistakes deserves some addt'l thought: "You think playing over-cards is your biggest leak." When I first read this, I thought "what idiots think this?" But I checked my stats and saw how poorly KQo, KJo, KTo, QJ etc. do in early position, and I can now understand this point. These hands can be VERY unprofitable in EP if overplayed, thus a newbie might be tempted to think big cards are a leak (I did--and it was a leak in EP). You often are dominated and they are tough to lay down if you catch the flop. But I digress... |
I thought what he meant by that was that if you aren't playing overcards correctly it won't be your biggest leak because, although the frequency of having overcards is fairly high, the magnitude of this leak isn't. Combine these and compare it to other leaks and this isn't a big leak at all.
Maybe Fnord could elaborate?
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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Quote:
I thought what he meant by that was that if you aren't playing overcards correctly it won't be your biggest leak because, although the frequency of having overcards is fairly high, the magnitude of this leak isn't. Combine these and compare it to other leaks and this isn't a big leak at all.
Maybe Fnord could elaborate?
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Here is my take on what Fnord meant:
How you play your overpairs pales in comparision to the rest of your postflop game. Missplaying overcards can cost you a bet or two, more if you are stupid with bad odds. But not check-raising, protecting your hand, and not value betting decent to good postflop hands will cost you ALOT more than those measly Over-card situations.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Stuff that costs you more than chasing/betting/whatever over-cards:
o Cold calling KQ/AJ/AT/KT/QT/JT offsuit pre-flop.
o Not betting the river for value with good hands against passive opponents.
o Open limping from the cut-off and button
o Never raising pre-flop from the blinds
o Chasing sets post-flop in small to medium pots.
Blah, blah, blah...
Then these same players bitch about the fine points of playing over-cards like it's some gapping black hole of cash suckage in their game.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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thanks, thats the type of post i was hoping you would make
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Get Pokertracker and either playerview or gametime. It will tell you who is loose agressive so you can adjust how you play when they raise in front of you.
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I have been putting off getting the full version of pokertracker. It's becoming increasingly clear with every session that this is something I am no longer going to be able to do without. I should have registered it a long time ago but have not done it. Will do that ASAP.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
One huge drawback I have noticed about playing at party over playing at stars is that they don't give you the % players seeing the flop. I do very well at tables were 50-55% see the flop but without this information I find it hard to find a good table while it is still a good table.
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Just look for biggest average pot size, same idea. |
These are precisely the games I am having trouble with. The big average pot size is almost always do to an overabundance of fish on one table. I have found that my better sessions are played on tables where the average pot size is 7-8 BB's. These tables seem to have plenty of loose calls, but you don't end up having to dodge 3/4 of the deck on the river to have hands like TPTK and 2pair hold up.
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