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Chopper

02-03-2009, 01:07 AM Post subject: is this actually right?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i just posted a comment and an idea hit me that i'm sure most of you have already calculated. but, some of the "newer" posters/limit players may not have thought of this.....it just took me a few years.

how many BBs/100 do you cough up thanks to the blinds alone per 100 hands? 6max, you would play 16.6 orbits per 100 hands, assuming it stays 6-handed the whole time, each orbit costs you .75BBs. that makes 12.49999999 BBs per 100 hands you need to overcome while playing 6max?

FR would be 10 orbits per 100 hands. you spend the same .75 BBs per orbit. 7.5 BBs per 100 hands to overcome?

sure, this sucks. but, it also makes me think that the other players at the table really suck if you win just ONE bb/100....let alone more.

is that right? do we really have to dig out of this large a hole EVERY 100 hands? i am getting depressed thinking about this one. wow.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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KoRnholio

02-03-2009, 01:59 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

It could be just another area of play where you can outplay your opponents/have an edge if they play their blinds worse than you do.

However, my take on it is that in 6max where you are playing/defending blinds so much more often, you will end up with bigger pots more often. This in turn makes it correct more often for people to chase their draws/overcards profitably, while also increasing the rake you are paying per 100 hands.

From my limited experience in 6max, I found that the rake was eating me and everyone else alive, compared to full ring.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Knytestorme

02-03-2009, 02:06 AM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Australia

Posts: 562

Yeah Chop, fairly scary isn't it.

This is why blind stealing is so important at 6-max and being able to defend your blinds is so useful as well.

Basically, if you manage to steal the blinds once per orbit then you have nothing to make up and if you manage to defend your blinds (or not spew too much with them) then you are less in the hole than it seems

Chopper

02-03-2009, 02:12 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

my experience is that 6max, because of blind stealing and cbetting, leads to smaller pots. the "decent" players are just chasing any old draw to the river because there are 5 players checking the turn.

there is a lot of muscle flexing and raising going on which forces more players to call 2 cold. a lot of players in a 3handed pot dont like calling 2 cold when they are in the pot preflop with crap and realize someone is trying to tell them they like their hand.

fewer players to the turn, to me, leads to smaller avg. pots.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

KoRnholio

02-03-2009, 02:34 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

True, there will be less multiway pots on the turn/river. But the increased preflop stealing/raising/reraising creates more bloated pots. And like you have said, people call down ridiculously light in 6max.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Chopper

02-03-2009, 03:54 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i seem to earn more FPPs at 6max in time played, but less in % of hands played. that tells me the FR pots are bigger. thats all i am basing this on.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

02-03-2009, 07:03 AM Post subject: Re: is this actually right?

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

how many BBs/100 do you cough up thanks to the blinds alone per 100 hands? 6max, you would play 16.6 orbits per 100 hands, assuming it stays 6-handed the whole time, each orbit costs you .75BBs. that makes 12.49999999 BBs per 100 hands you need to overcome while playing 6max?

FR would be 10 orbits per 100 hands. you spend the same .75 BBs per orbit. 7.5 BBs per 100 hands to overcome?

sure, this sucks. but, it also makes me think that the other players at the table really suck if you win just ONE bb/100....let alone more.

is that right? do we really have to dig out of this large a hole EVERY 100 hands? i am getting depressed thinking about this one. wow.

Nope.

For those nrs to be true, we would have to assume someone always raises when we are on the blinds, and we always get dealt crap.

Sometimes we'll get a walk. Sometimes we'll be dealt AA, and the fact that we posted a small bet "blind" is irrelevant since we would be raising whatever anyways.

Also, sometimes there'll be limpers and we'll take a free look at some flops, actually winning some pots.

Another thing no one takes into account when giving these kind of nrs is the amount of blinds u earn not only in steals, but also in "regular" pots. Meaning, somebody raises and u 3bet on the btn w your QQ... blinds fold. That pot (all those pots) have some extra dead money in them (blinds).

So you'd have to reduce those numbers quite a bit.

Sklansky explained how poker is basically a battle for the blinds. If there were no blinds/antes, there would be no point in raising anything but the nuts. If there are blinds that come along quick and are considerable, u have to play looser and fight for them. In this fight, u dont have to overcome "your blinds", u have to come on top of the competition winning more than them, and losing less.

DrivingDog

02-03-2009, 08:18 AM Post subject: Re: is this actually right?

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Uh, no. The blinds (even your own blinds) are still there for you to win. If they just disappeared (came out of your stack and went straight to the house) that would be 16BB/100 or whatever that you'd have to make up.

Think of them as an ante. Rather than put in the same ante every hand for six or nine hands you are putting in your entire share in two of those hands per orbit.

The thing we need to overcome is the rake. Typical rake is around 3 BB/100 at levels up to 2/4 and gradually gets less beyond that. So to profit 1 BB/100 at 2/4 limits you have to actually win 4 BB/100

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Chopper

02-03-2009, 02:49 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

sure, i understand that these are like antes. and, i understand that the more often they come around the looser we need to be in order to avoid losing them w/o a fight.

but, i was assuming we fold every hand when i did the calcs. we would be losing X BB/100 hands without even playing. which means we are starting out in a hole. we must get active to AVOID losing like this.

some of us recuperate those losses...and then some. but, most players recuperate "almost all of it," but never get over the hump to breakeven.

now, add the rake on top and it gets even worse.

i'm sure this isnt making sense. and, i'm sure i'm still wrong. i just dont see it yet.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

02-03-2009, 05:16 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

well, i guess the thing is that, besides the rake, poker is a zero-sum game.
Meaning, for u to lose someone has to win, and viceversa.
Everybody posts blinds at the same frequency and value. So if everyone does, this is not a disadvantage for anyone. Same for all, no loss.

If you are smarter and play better, u can get more of other people's blinds, u can defend yours better so u lose yours less, and in the meantime, get the best of it in the inevitable confrontations.

But really, since everyone posts the same, thinking that u lose those blinds doesnt make sense, cause... where do they go? u only lose them if you let others take them from u without a fight or without gettin some of theirs yourself.

If, as u say, we assume that we post blinds and then fold every hand, then we must assume the same condition for the other players, thus levelling the situation.

finding the balance between stealing as much as possible and fighting a lot, and not putting yourself in vulnerable situations by playing crap hands and getting the worst of it, is one of the things that will make you win (this is called PF strategy and reads).

hope this makes sense, i realize its hard to explain, and i may not be doing a good job.

Chopper

02-03-2009, 06:36 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

no. youre fine.

i was just trying to equate a starting point to how far a player has to come to be profitable.

you would assume 0 bb/100, i would start off way less. if the average player doesnt win money, then, the "starting point" has to be lower than 0 bb/100.

the basement would be what the blinds take from you if you never play a hand. thats about the worst you could feasibly play. the rake wouldnt matter, to you, since you never play a hand, therefore, never win a hand. obviously, you could play even worse by playing only trash and capping all streets, but that's even more stupid than this brain-fart of a topic i am rambling on about.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

sinky

02-04-2009, 10:38 AM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: SCOTLAND

Posts: 295

I have recently been heading towards the conclusion that the most important factor in good blind play is table/seat selection. In other words the more flops you see for free the better.

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