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euphoricism
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08-16-2005, 07:02 PM
Post subject: Absolutely unreal hand. I have no idea what happened here.
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with J , 5.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.
Flop: (14.50 SB) 9 , Q, K (7 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.
Turn: (16.25 BB) A (6 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, CO folds, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.
River: (24.25 BB) J (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, Button folds.
Final Pot: 27.25 BB
Results in white below:
Hero has Jc 5c (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 27.25 BB.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Alright, I think I can understand the flop call. Over-calls good and it's not clear how much (if any) edge we have over the field. What would the button cold call 3 with? Although if we could get another Jack to fold....
On the turn I would lead out and hope to be raised because the most likely bet is comming from late position and they might check the scare card.
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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I don't know if I should disagree with your flop and turn play, or just be shocked at what happened on the river.
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I was so at a loss at how to play this. The pot was too big to fold my nut inside straight flush draw, so i went purely into what I thought was maximize mode. I figured that J was the perfect river card for me because the flush would probably three-bet me. He folded instead.
I swore his overcall meant he had a flush draw. He is, however, running 92%/20% so it could be anything.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shark Bait
I don't know if I should disagree with your flop and turn play, or just be shocked at what happened on the river.
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Why? Players will call single bets with crap on the river, but with a bet + raise a lot of players will fold if they can't split or beat Tx. However, enough players will make bad calls or re-raise with Tx that he's got to raise here.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I agree that the flop and turn play were probably not ideal. I think the flop call is ok. Ive got a damned strong draw, even though im calling cold.
The turn.. eh. I dont know why I just called instead of three-betting. I really felt the over-calls were worth more than raising. Im pretty unsure if that was right or not, i think its marginal either way. Hell, they might have called the three-bet just as much.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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yeah...very weird hand. doesn't look like you coulda gotten much outta them one way or another.
in fact, the way you played was probably optimal. a 3bet on the turn would probably scare out the people after you, whereas the call could look like a stubborn one card flush draw.
i bet the river tho, hoping to get a 3bet in.
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You probably have a big edge over the field. Cap the flop. Although I don't understand how or why those people overcalled that :/
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
You probably have a big edge over the field.
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How do you figure, care to back it up? How much value is there in pushing people out vs keeping them around to pay off his flop edge, then pay more when he hits? How does capping vs calling effect our ability to manipulate the pot on the turn?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
You probably have a big edge over the field.
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How do you figure, care to back it up? How much value is there in pushing people out vs keeping them around to pay off his flop edge, then pay more when he hits? How does capping vs calling effect our ability to manipulate the pot on the turn? |
Against people who cold-call 3 raises on the flop I don't think it matters actually... Just getting that extra bet in
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Against people who cold-call 3 raises on the flop I don't think it matters actually... Just getting that extra bet in
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..but are we getting in extra bets with the best of it? How do I win the max here when I hit and lose the least when I miss?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Against people who cold-call 3 raises on the flop I don't think it matters actually... Just getting that extra bet in
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..but are we getting in extra bets with the best of it? How do I win the max here when I hit and lose the least when I miss? |
Well, if you build a bigger pot on the flop, more people will call at the river. Although I'm not sure if this would work best at this table or not...
But since there are so many people in the pot, you need to win 20% of the time for your bet to actually pay off... here you're winning 35%
So if called, the bet is EV+ for you.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Well, if you build a bigger pot on the flop, more people will call at the river. Although I'm not sure if this would work best at this table or not...
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Good point on the lack of reads.
For what it's worth, here's what I think... I like a cap if we might clean up our Tx outs. However, capping sets us up to either lead the turn or look funny checking. Also, if we hit and lead we might scare others into just calling down. By just calling the flop we might pay the least when we miss on the turn and be able to sneak in extra bet(s) when we hit. However, thinking TAggs might fold to that line knowing that we'll almost never bluff a big field with a pot building line, making a bet/3-bet line more appealing if we hit...
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