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littleogre
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02-02-2006, 10:48 AM
Post subject: ? about bluffing in limit 1/2 and lower
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I have several questions i would like to ask on the subject but will sart with just 1. On which street do you think bluffing will make the most or atleast save you the most money. I don't really like bluffing preflop as tomany players have that ya never know what the flop will bring atitude. Personally i like to bluff on the turn or river. Not sure which street is actually the best. By bluffing the river you atleast know they will give up chasing on the otherhand you have given them one extra card to river a hand. I know this is read dependant but in general terms which street do you prefer to bluff on? Ok 1 more question before i go which bluffing tactic is better when you are first to act in a heads up pot? Leading out with a bet or check raising. The check raise looks more like a strong hand but it also cost more money.
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wwonka
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 120
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stop bluffing so much first off.
at the low limit you need to have a hand at showdown 90%
of the time.
I like the raise for a free card on the flop if you have something play.
but bluffing the river is a bad play in general unless you have a real good read on a certain player. and if there area more than 1 player they probably have something.
peace
wwonka
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wwonka
stop bluffing so much first off.
at the low limit you need to have a hand at showdown 90%
of the time.
I like the raise for a free card on the flop if you have something play.
but bluffing the river is a bad play in general unless you have a real good read on a certain player. and if there area more than 1 player they probably have something.
peace
wwonka
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Quoted for truth.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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One tactic that i have started trying is check raise semi bluffing the turn then beting out wether i hit my draw or not. Just so long as they don't 3 bet me on the turn. So far this has worked decently but i just started trying it i need to get some sorta excel sheet to keep track as i don't think pt would help in this stuation but i don't relly know excel perhaps someone that does could help me out. Basically i would like to know if this tactic at the very least is less -ev then simple folding and giving up the pot. So i like it to track how much money i loose by calling the turn bet and folding if i miss as compared to my chack raise tactic. Later i will post a template and perhaps somene would put the formulas in for me. I will then report back on my findings.
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wwonka
stop bluffing so much first off.
at the low limit you need to have a hand at showdown 90% of the time.
I like the raise for a free card on the flop if you have something play.
but bluffing the river is a bad play in general unless you have a real good read on a certain player. and if there area more than 1 player they probably have something.
peace
wwonka
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you hit that one on the head...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok i hardly ever bluff sorry if i gave that impression I'm just trying to add it to my weapons. Also i dang near never bluff multiple people. Lets say i have ak and i check and my opponent bets and the pot has 5 big bets in it 2 of which are mine. I can call then fold if i miss costing me a total of 4 bets. Now lets say i check then 2 bet and bet out again on the river after a blank card. clearly i will be in deep doo if they never fold and would be bleading money by the gallons. Well i want to continue this discussion if you guys don't mind it but i am really hungry and gota go eat breakfast.Us ogres love food ya know.
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wwonka
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 120
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
. Lets say i have ak and i check and my opponent bets and the pot has 5 big bets in it 2 of which are mine. I can call then fold if i miss costing me a total of 4 bets..
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first off ONCE U PUT money into a pot it isnt yours any more.
say that over and over till you know it.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wwonka
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
. Lets say i have ak and i check and my opponent bets and the pot has 5 big bets in it 2 of which are mine. I can call then fold if i miss costing me a total of 4 bets..
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first off ONCE U PUT money into a pot it isnt yours any more.
say that over and over till you know it. |
Sorry misuse of words. I just meant that out of the 5 bets in the pot 2 of them are ones that i put in.
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wwonka
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 120
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no u need to get away from that thinking
think there are 5 bets in the pot and it will cost you
1 more to call.
otherwise you play hands farther than you should since you already have money in the pot.
and once it is in the pot it is no longer yours.
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Do you play passive poker? it sure sounds like it every time that someone says something to help you sound apologetic...
if you do play passive poker then you can sit on my left at my 6max tables and watch me take your blinds and raise you out of pots many times till you snap go on tilt and give more money to me  ...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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What PokerFanatic is trying to say is that you should play more aggressive.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Bluffing is your friend. In a 6-max game, using the river bluff at the right time I believe can be the difference in breaking even and making a good rate. It will also break you if you do it to much or in the wrong situations. I won't go into any specifics, it is kind of an experience thing, but here are my general rules:
Bluff only 1 or 2 opponents, never 3 or more.
Bluff when you have the right odds ... you estimate your chance at a successful bluff to be greater than the % of the pot your bluff represents.
Never bluff an opponent who always calls down any pair.
Bluff an opponent who folds on the river a lot.
Tend not to bluff when there are no possible draws available on the turn yet more than one person has called a turn bet ... one or more of them has some kind of hand.
The most important, but trickiest ...
Bluff when your opponent has a weak hand they are willing to lay down that is still better than your hand.
Also, Bluff-raise the river when your opponent is bluffing with a slightly better hand than yours.
Before you devote too much time to learning to bluff, make sure you have a good handle on when to value bet mediocre hands on the river. The big thing is to constantly be learning how to better assess the strength of your hand with respect to your opponents' from the previous streets' action and know how best to get value from the situation.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Do you play passive poker? it sure sounds like it every time that someone says something to help you sound apologetic...
if you do play passive poker then you can sit on my left at my 6max tables and watch me take your blinds and raise you out of pots many times till you snap go on tilt and give more money to me ... |
No if anything i am overly aggressive at the table but i did start out passive as i am a passive person by nature. Right now i am trying to find that balance. Also i am not one to want to start any friction.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Do you play passive poker? it sure sounds like it every time that someone says something to help you sound apologetic...
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There's a difference between being passive and being courteous, and I don't believe there is a strong correlation between the two either.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok one tactic that works for me is say i have a hand like kq on the botton or one off the button. I will 2 bet actually i always 2 bet kq. Anyway lets say 2 or less people see the flop with me. If they check i will bet even if i miss sometimes they fold sometimes they don't. Then if they both check the turn i will bet 1 more time. I don't do ths all the time depends on the board. The turn bluff is makeing me money but i was wondering if i would be better of by just checking the flop then bluffing the turn? I know the turn bluff is making money by keep track of results. A poster over at mw wrote an excel sheet for me but i lost it when my hd crashed. Anyway do you guys think i would be better off checking on the flop then just beting the turn? A bet on both the flop and turn makes the pot bigger so i win more when they fold but i would save 1 small bet by just checking the flop.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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What happens when someone bets into you on the turn?
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
What happens when someone bets into you on the turn?
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I 2 bet if they just call then i probably win by hiting an over on the river. If they 3 bet unless i have other draws on top of my 2 overs i will fold. At low stakes i rarely see people 3 beting with out the goods. Also if they just call and check the river i will fire 1 more shot at the pot if i have noticed they have a habit of folding at the river and the pot is decent.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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bah, I don't like the turn raise bluff as a standard play with overs. Most of the people I have seen bet the turn because they picked up top pair or 2pair. It can mean picking up a draw, but the people that overbet draws are pretty noticeable. And in that case it's a value bet heads up. I like to use the turn raise bluff on tight players who raise broadways preflop and will fire out a bet on the flop and turn after missing with AT or KJ or better. If the flop is low, turn is a blank, raise them and if they check the river bet and you can expect them to fold.
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roymunson451
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 57
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I've play alot of 1/2 and I stopped bluffing on the river, unless its an opponent you know you can bluff. The average fish at 1/2 will call you w/any pair & occasionally A high. If you can't beat a pair, just check. Too many times the river would drop a 4th suited card, and my opponent would call my bluff on the river w/an unsuited pair of rags. The point is, that I always lost more money bluffing in the long run at lower limits. But thats just my experience...
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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LittelOgre, Read The Theory of Poker by Sklansky.
There is more quality material on bluffing, semi-bluffing, inducing bluffs, defending against bluffs, etc, than any other book I have.
You have lots of good tips here, but on your specific question about what streets to bluff, few posters here and few authors support river bluffing in small stakes limit. Too many players that will call you down, and you have lost the semi-bluff option, which is a key part of any overall bluffing strategy.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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