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Ragnar4

09-26-2006, 12:03 AM Post subject: AAAARRGGH!

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

So I've been reading a lot of John Vorhaus lately. He suggests a type of play that gets your opponents leaning one way while you're moving the other.

So I hit the table, with a buck fifty, and played the worst poker of my life, I raised, showed down 59off, won a couple of big hands, and put the table on its ear, after 20 minutes, I had them all in the palm of my hand. I re-bought, and tightened waaaay up.

Never in my life have I seen AA, KK, and QQ get cracked by pure crap so many times. My 4th street nut flushes would get full housed and quaded. My top two pairs would have some yahoo calling down with 55 only to river the set. I'm so disgusted right now. I had that table calling me with anything, and I couldn't win.

I'm about to give it all up. That strategy is crap. I suggest you burn any Vorhaus book you own.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

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Damian

09-26-2006, 08:19 AM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Manchester UK

Posts: 24

What an absolute nightmare !

Sounds to me like that strategy may work at a higher limit, but at micro limits, they'll call you down with a High Card 7 anyway.

NWNewell

09-26-2006, 11:52 AM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

My response about table imagine in another post.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-43921.htm

For lower stakes, on-line hold'em, don't worry too much about the table image concept. Does it play a part in your overall profit, sure. But does it make up for poor play or more important than solid fundament play, hell no.

If you drop a buy-in (or even a third of a buy-in), trying to establish a loose table image and not because you were making the proper plays, DO NOT expect to recoop that in from table image value. It is just not going to happen. On-line, players come and go too often and others don't pay enough attention.

If anything, maybe raise or re-raise occationally with marginal hands or without quite the correct drawing odds.

For example, if you limp in from late position with JsTs, and you've got another limper and the BB in the pot with you. Say the flop comes Ks, Th, 8d. BB checks and the MP limper bets out. I might raise this on occation.

You've got 2.5:1 Odds to raise (4:1 to call). You are most likely behind. You've got about 7 effective outs with your TwoPair/Trips draw and a backdoor straight and flush draw. So, a raise is about -0.475BB. So, even a lower skilled, mildly observant player will pick up on this as a dumb raise. However, the will be occations that your pair of tens actually is the best hand and will hold up when the BB folds two the the 2-bet. So, the raise may be more like -0.425BB. But most players will not give you credit for drawing to a flush draw or straight draw so your flop riase will look to them like an even worse play, about -0.6BB.

But here is the nice part. Even though this play is negative EV. The value of this hand can only go up.

If the turn doesn't help, and you can take a free card with position, your total hand EV will increase to about -0.057BB. But if he bets out, you will have to fold and your total hand EV will remain at the at the -0.425BB. That is the worst case. So, we'll say he bets the turn half the time. This situation will happen about 34% of the time (only 16 of 47 cards won't help your hand in some way!! 2,3,4,5, and 6 that are non-spades), with an average overall hand EV between calling a bet and checking of -0.241BB.

Any other card will increase your river draw and increase your EV. And this doesn't take into account the implied odds you will gain when you hit your hand by the river, nor the possibility that your pair of Tens might be good. So, if you work out all the math and account for implied odds, while this flop play looks like a stupid raise, you have some many opportunities to improve that this is much closer to an even money play than you (and more importantly the other players) realize. The only thing to really worry about is geting 3-bet on the flop (at which time I think you just have to give up).

I wouldn't make a habit of playing this often because it can get you into trouble, but if you want to add some diception for your "table image" look for situations like this (you have huge opportunities to pick up additional draws and are in position to take a free card on the true), where a play may look silly, but you know better and it is not a very negative EV play, if at all.

Other than that, just stick to a tight, agreesive, solid fundemantal game. And if you notice that players are constantly respecting your raises a little too much, THEN add a few hands and loosen up a little (WISELY) and raise a few more hands form latepostion and continuation bet a little more to take advantage of your tight table image.

Remember, if you are going to try tricky or advanced stratagey, your opponents have to be smart enough AND observant enough to fall for it. That doesn't usually happen at on-line low stakes. Most play their own cards and are not observant enough or understand enough about the game to try to put people on hands.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

pokerfanatic

09-26-2006, 01:19 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

honestly at small stakes limit hold'em the avg player doesn't even pay attention to how you are playing... the ones that do will notice that you tightened up anyways, so i really just don't see how this can be a +EV play...

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord

chimpgo

09-26-2006, 01:21 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 7

i think the above post is the reason why i will never be a great poker player

pokerfanatic

09-26-2006, 01:40 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by chimpgo

i think the above post is the reason why i will never be a great poker player

which post mine or NWNewells?

In regards to mine it's simple thinking, you have to think about your game in comparison to the avg players game at a particular level... something i would talk about if i started coaching regularly...

I have really been thinking about coaching Short Handed Small Stakes LHE... I'm going to use a couple people as kind of “Ginny Pigs” and see how well it goes... and if it goes well then i'll make an official announcement in the Short Handed SSLHE topic...

I haven't played FR in a long time and don't see myself playing it any time soon either... I can talk about genial poker concepts, but when it comes to specific hands in FR/ SH... I'm a SH guy...

chimpgo

09-26-2006, 02:11 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2006

Posts: 7

Quote:

which post mine or NWNewells

NWNewells

I guess the theoretical side has never been a strong point!

NWNewell

09-26-2006, 04:32 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

I guess I went kind of crazy with my post, sorry it was so long winded (got into work early, with one else around and didn't feel like doing anything yet... lol).

I kind of got carried way with trying to evaluate that situation. I would never expect you to try to evaluate any given situation like that real-time. I know I can't. But I was just trying to illustrate and evaluate an idea.

But my main point was, don't worry about trying to carve a table image for value, as pokerfanatic said. It just won't work.

If you do anything, try take advanage of marginal situations where you are not really costing yourself a lot of EV, but it may not be the best play. (a simpler play is raising a flush draw when calling might have been more positive EV... but it is also not going to convice as many people that you are loose and crazy)

But as we said, the best thing is to just not worry about table image, on-line. It's not worth much EV.

Best advice is the same advice everyong gives.... because it works! Play tight, agressive, solid fundumetal poker.

I lose more money trying to make a moves on people than anything else. (part because I'm terrible at it, and part because opponentse just don't notice or know any better)

Striaghten-up and fly right!

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

pokerfanatic

09-26-2006, 04:51 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

you really don't have to probe every situation to the deepest levels...

you only need to stay one level ahead of your opponents...

i'm not gonna get into it right now don't really have the time...

NWNewell

09-26-2006, 05:05 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

you really don't have to probe every situation to the deepest levels...

you only need to stay one level ahead of your opponents...

Fair enough....

I guess that is the engineering side of me, loving to look into the theoretical side and in depth analysis.

I don't go this deep or into this much detail when playing (I can't. I'm not that quick or smart.). But it is fun to think about and try to evaluate, and know about and understand the idea.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

pokerfanatic

09-26-2006, 09:04 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

i'm a engineering major myself, sometimes it's bettor time spent understanding other concepts, it's an experance thing i guess...

i spent way to much time thinking about one hand in one situation rather then a big picture...

Xanadu

09-27-2006, 05:24 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Location: st. paul, MO

Posts: 966

I really think we should burn any poker book that doesn't show us how to make money on a hand when our Aces get cracked. We all know short term results justify any conclusion in poker.

pokerfanatic

09-28-2006, 12:03 AM

#13 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanadu

I really think we should burn any poker book that doesn't show us how to make money on a hand when our Aces get cracked. We all know short term results justify any conclusion in poker.

yup... you hit that one on the head...

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