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dalecooper

09-02-2005, 02:17 AM Post subject: Aaaaaargh

#1 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,107

Is this a good laydown in a limit game? I can't imagine any hand he would raise on the end here that I'm ahead of. Should I even bet the river in this situation? On the surface it looked like a good card for me, but it put one too many straight possibilities out there for my liking. If he didn't have the straight he had to have made the flush earlier. Should I have check/folded the river, even?

***** Hand History for Game 2637422478 *****
$2/$4 Texas Hold'em - Thursday, September 01, 22:08:42 EDT 2005
Table Table 11376 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 7: jayc1015 ( $88 )
Seat 10: shudbworking ( $63.75 )
Seat 1: stressball10 ( $138.14 )
Seat 9: GRANDE_PARTY ( $151.09 )
Seat 3: Armzz ( $139 )
Seat 2: JoeC1948 ( $105.75 )
Seat 5: goachmang ( $20.50 )
Seat 4: lewoll31 ( $130.75 )
goachmang posts small blind [$1].
jayc1015 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Kh Ks ]
GRANDE_PARTY folds.
shudbworking folds.
stressball10 raises [$4].
JoeC1948 folds.
Armzz calls [$4].
lewoll31 folds.
goachmang folds.
jayc1015 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, Th, Jd ]
stressball10 bets [$2].
Armzz calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
stressball10 bets [$4].
Armzz calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
stressball10 bets [$4].
Armzz has been reconnected and has 20 seconds to act.
Armzz has been reconnected and has 19 seconds to act.
Armzz raises [$8].
stressball10 folds.
Armzz does not show cards.
Armzz wins $33.50
bigdt has joined the table.

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Demiparadigm

09-02-2005, 02:40 AM

#2 (permalink)

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He had QK.
Horrible laydown.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

dalecooper

09-02-2005, 02:44 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,107

How do you put him on that specific hand? I'm not defending the laydown necessarily, but why QK? QA, Q9, or any two hearts are very plausible hands... and it's hard to picture QK raising on the end with that board, unless the guy's an idiot. Which he may have been, I have no idea.

I'm a little frustrated right now, I admit, because I've been losing with all my big pocket pairs this evening. This was maybe just fatalism on my part.

outphase

09-02-2005, 02:46 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

atrocious laydown. You can't laydown good hands to 1 bet on the river. QK, JK, KT all play this way on the river.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

dalecooper

09-02-2005, 02:49 AM

#5 (permalink)

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You're probably right. Aaaarrrr. The annoying part is that I'd never make that fold in no limit, but the switch to limit has me outthinking myself.

LeFou

09-02-2005, 02:54 AM

#6 (permalink)

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some other hands that would raise here and lose to you:
AK (esp. if Ah)
KJ/KT
K9 (probably the 9h, but that one would've packed the flop)
QQ? AA (tricky AA)

I would definitely have called. I mean ... set of kings

Fnord

09-02-2005, 02:55 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I wouldn't even think of folding a set before the river. I've only laid down sets on the river and almost always when facing multiple bets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

dalecooper

09-02-2005, 03:07 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

I would definitely have called. I mean ... set of kings

Yeah, I know. I psyched myself out. I've had a few too many hands today where I called that last raise on the river with strong cards and lost... it's making me jumpy. Thanks for the input guys - you mentioned several hands he could have had that I didn't even consider.

jmontis

09-02-2005, 03:21 AM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

you know what you did

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

09-02-2005, 04:55 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

you have outs against a straight come on

Demiparadigm

09-02-2005, 06:40 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

you have outs against a straight come on

No. He doesn't.
Do you see why?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Zinnsoldaten

09-02-2005, 11:15 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Sweden

Posts: 130

Oh how I loathe this "Do you see why?"-trend. Do you see why? ><;

What Shadows We Are, And What Shadows We Pursue

outphase

09-02-2005, 02:08 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

You put yourself on tilt and started playing uber tight. You cannot let the past actions of the day dictate how your current hand is played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten

Oh how I loathe this "Do you see why?"-trend. Do you see why? ><;

It's part of the learning process... do you see... never mind :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

a500lbgorilla

09-02-2005, 02:23 PM

#14 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

you have outs against a straight come on

No. He doesn't.
Do you see why?

Answer in white:

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

chardrian

09-02-2005, 05:23 PM

#15 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 4,524

Oftentimes in Limit you have to grab your ankles and put on the

face. This was one of those times - in fact you can even announce it before hand. "I'm grabbing my ankles here" and then call. This was one of my (and to some extent still is) biggest leaks in Limit - not realizing that I should not fold to small bets in big pots. You were probably right that you had lost. But you'll be surprised how many people make the bluff/bad raise on the river there because "that's the only way I can win the pot." Gotta call.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

RiverMonkey

09-02-2005, 06:31 PM

#16 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

If you want to convince yourself that a river call is correct, take all the possible hands listed in this thread, assign each one a probability that your opponent held it, then calculate the EV of the call given the pot size. You'll see that it's a correct call.

Of course, your opponent's playing tendencies and any reads you might have would change that EV calculation. Ok, I can't resist .... Do you see why?

09-03-2005, 08:31 AM

#17 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

you have outs against a straight come on

No. He doesn't.
Do you see why?

KoRnholio

09-04-2005, 07:21 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

You're probably right. Aaaarrrr. The annoying part is that I'd never make that fold in no limit, but the switch to limit has me outthinking myself.

So you should be even more inclined to call the river here. Basically you're calling one bet at the end to win a pot of ~10 bets. If you win just one time in 10 in this spot, you're making money in the long run.

I'd say the only time to consider a fold here is when there's 4 to a flush on the board (and you dont have the Ks) and he played it as if he had a high diamond the whole way. But even then I'd likely pay if off with my set anyways since it beats many possible 2 pair hands that he could have.

KoRnholio

09-05-2005, 06:42 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Heh. Here's what I am talking about, I probably should have laid this down on the river.. Sorry no HH conversion since this was on Titan [aka new Noble] and they have gibbled HH's.

par666: Post SB $0.50
SonnyJonez: Post BB $1.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Stoneface2 [HK SK]
clutch: Fold
LeBelAbel: Fold
Stoneface2: Raise $2.00
bnzsms: Fold
BlackCat2000: Fold
bltbullet: Call $2.00
justaround: Fold
Poolewe: Call $2.00
par666: Call $1.50
SonnyJonez: Fold
*** FLOP *** [D10 D3 SJ]
par666: Bet $1.00
Stoneface2: Raise $2.00
bltbullet: Fold
Poolewe: Call $2.00
par666: Raise $2.00
Stoneface2: Call $1.00
Poolewe: Call $1.00
*** TURN *** [D10 D3 SJ CK]
par666: Bet $2.00
Stoneface2: Raise $4.00
Poolewe: Raise $6.00
par666: Allin $0.25
Stoneface2: Raise $4.00
Poolewe: Call $2.00
*** RIVER *** [D10 D3 SJ CK DQ]
Stoneface2: Check
Poolewe: Bet $2.00
Stoneface2: Call $2.00
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Poolewe: shows [CQ CA] (Straight)
Stoneface2: shows [HK SK] (Three of a kind)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $39.25 Rake $1.00
Poolewe: wins $39.25

I probably shouldn't have 3-bet the turn, but I figured I am best here too often not to.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Demiparadigm

09-06-2005, 03:15 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,602

Easy turn 3 bet. the only hand you are behind is AQ
You have 2 pair drawing dead
A smaller set has 1 out
Some players would raise here with QK (OESD & TP)
Any hand that is not AQ has at most 4 outs to win.
Against AQ, You have 10 outs to a boat or better.

A river raise would be incorrect, but the turn 3 bet is required.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

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