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AA versus a lag

  
 
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littleogre
Old 01-23-2007, 08:27 PM     Post subject: AA versus a lag #1 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 Villian stats
VP$IP 23.25
pfr 18.7
agr4.32

Particalarly aggressive on turn and river
turn agr=5.60
river=7.00

here is the hand

Hand #37040651-26233 at Argos ($.25/$.50 Hold'em)
Started at 23/Jan/07 12:41:30

lylem222 is at seat 0 with $22.05.
rubytues is at seat 1 with $22.90.
TraderShang is at seat 2 with $12.25.
tori_joe is at seat 3 with $16.60.
JonAfon is at seat 4 with $20.20.
raise4u2 is at seat 5 with $26.70.
littleogre is at seat 6 with $6.05.
bigmamma321 is at seat 7 with $18.65.
UBHB is at seat 8 with $12.45.
The button is at seat 7.

UBHB posts the small blind of $.10.
lylem222 posts the big blind of $.25.

lylem222: -- --
rubytues: -- --
tori_joe: -- --
JonAfon: -- --
raise4u2: -- --
littleogre: Ac Ad
bigmamma321: -- --
UBHB: -- --

Pre-flop:

rubytues folds. tori_joe raises to $.50. JonAfon
re-raises to $.75. raise4u2 folds. littleogre
re-raises to $1. bigmamma321 folds. UBHB folds.
lylem222 folds. tori_joe folds. JonAfon calls.

Flop (board: Qh Jh 9c):

JonAfon checks. littleogre bets $.25. JonAfon
calls.

Turn (board: Qh Jh 9c 9h):

JonAfon bets $.50. littleogre calls.

River (board: Qh Jh 9c 9h 5s):

JonAfon bets $.50. littleogre raises to $1. JonAfon
re-raises to $1.50. littleogre calls.



Ok i called the turn bet thinking i was traping as he could be beting nearly any 2 with stas like that. On the river i raised as i did not want to close the beting. Felt secure in having the best hand. Against a less maniacal player maybe i just call the river. When he reraised me on the river i began to think maybe he does have a strong hand but by then it was to late to back out.
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littleogre
Old 01-23-2007, 09:11 PM #2 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 ok tried to convert hand and got the following error.
This is not a recognized hand history format.
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bigspenda73
Old 01-23-2007, 09:32 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Ultimate Bet
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25./$0.50
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 folds, Hero caps, 4 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11.4SB, 2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.7BB, 2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.7BB, 2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 14.7BB

I raise the turn. Call down a 3bet. I only call a river donk.
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euphoricism
Old 01-24-2007, 02:41 AM #4 (permalink)  
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I luff heros line. Bravo :]

Spenda, notice that hero paid the exact same as he would if he raised turn turn and called down a threebet.
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bigspenda73
Old 01-24-2007, 08:45 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
I luff heros line. Bravo :]

Spenda, notice that hero paid the exact same as he would if he raised turn turn and called down a threebet.
Ummm why are we waiting until the river to raise though?

Euph, notice that hindsight is 20/20.
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littleogre
Old 01-24-2007, 02:19 PM #6 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 well I do not have much expierence playing someone with such aggressive numbers. My thinking was such an agressive player could be pulling a bluff on the turn but if he does have me beaten i'm not laying my aces down against a player like that on a board like that. Now if ricky the rock c-raised me i would run like a little girl. Also i find that players usually think you are full of it when you suddenly bet on the river. First scenerio lets assume we are in front. If i 2 bet the river most players would just call unless they have my aces whooped or even fold if they are on a stone cold bluff. Although i figured he probably had something but i admit is hard to put such an aggressive player on a hand. Anyway i rambling in short not having any idea what a player like that would have i figured my line made me the most when i am in front and looses the least when i am behind.
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euphoricism
Old 01-24-2007, 05:15 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Yes ogre, youre pretty right on.

If villain had QQ, JJ or 9x he would probably c/r not donk, so its fairly likely we're ahead.

If we are indeed ahead, and villain is donking to "see where he is" we do NOT want to raise and tell villain to fold. We'll cost ourself the betting on the river.

So essentially by calling the turn and raising the river you're allowing villain to bluff when youre ahead (Win the most) and you're paying the exact same as you would if you raised the turn (lose the same). Also note that on a lot of boards villain will not bet/3bet the river even when you ARE behind, whereas he would have done so on the turn. For a lot of players river raises are terrifying. This can be useful as well.

You do have to weigh this against the fact that villain will sometimes draw out on the river. The 3flush board kinda sucks, but it wont hit particularly often.
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littleogre
Old 01-24-2007, 06:20 PM #8 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 no to let the cat out of the bag sadly the bad guy was not bluffing or overplaying a hand. Dude floped a set of ladies. His maniac style really got him payed off in this pot.
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bigspenda73
Old 01-24-2007, 07:03 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 You guys are really acting like a guy with those AF #'s is going to slow down ever. Euph, you really think he is going to fold here or even slow down? Against a regular sane opponent I do like Ogre's line but not against this player. We only lose to qq/jj/9x. Im trying to start a betting war on the first large street I come to. That's just me and I spew a ton but if we are going to use PT/HUD then we need to take those reads into account. His WTSD would help here.

I think you get in the same amount of bets regardless yet you have the chance to hit a 2 outer and probably get in 1-2 more bets on the river.

Scenario 1: We raise the turn, he 3bets, we call the river
Scenario 2: We call the turn, raise the river, call a 3bet
Scenario 3: We raise the turn, he 3bets, we spike an Ace
Scenario 4: We raise the turn, he folds

I think the chances of him folding are so remote here.
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littleogre
Old 01-24-2007, 07:19 PM #10 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 honestly i would think about folding against a turn c-raise from a sane opponent . I find that at low stakes most do not c-raise with anything less then 2 pair. Or just go into check call mode. Also despite his maniac tendises i did not want to bet off 3 or 4 big bets in the turn and river with just a pair.
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bigspenda73
Old 01-24-2007, 07:42 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 You might but a maniac wouldn't
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euphoricism
Old 01-24-2007, 09:59 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
We only lose to qq/jj/9x. Im trying to start a betting war on the first large street I come to.
We lose to QQ, JJ, 9x, KT, 55, and any two hearts. Thats a LOT of hands. If we're ahead, we're only a little ahead, and if we're behind we're way the hell behind. Getting into a raising war here is spewy
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bigspenda73
Old 01-25-2007, 01:46 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 We beat so many hands that a maniac type player would play fast. To say the least, we beat... KK/AQ/AJ/KQ/KJ/QJ/TT.

This is all relative to the turn. Im not putting villian on a FD he would have played the flop mucho fastero than this. Also, I guess we need to be careful what someone with these AF numbers just c/c a flop with. It would almost alarm me that he did not raise the flop.
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euphoricism
Old 01-25-2007, 07:25 PM #14 (permalink)  
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The point stays the same -- villain will 3bet with a much larger range on the turn than he will on the river. I guess its really a question of whether you want one extra bet in the pot or not, I dont particularly mind either way, its hardly a mistake to raise the turn, but the point is hero's line is incredibly useful in other places.
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