|
pokernewb
|
09-21-2005, 12:23 PM
Post subject: AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ etc. How many players do I want preflop?
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
|
|
I'm just wondering how many players I want to see the flop with me with different hands. Usually what I do with high pairs and high cards is to just call at a tight table where I dont think anyone (or maybe just one) will follow if I raise, or raise at a loose table if I think I'll get some callers.
Anyway, the problem is I don't really know what the ideal amount of opponents is on the flop with any specific hands and I was hoping someone could enlighten me. For example with say AKo do I want lots of opponents, few opponents or am I happy just collecting the blinds?
BTW I'm talking about a 1/2 limit game here. How would things change in a NL game?
Cheers
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
AA/KK/QQ/AK - As many as possible for as many bets as possible.
JJ/TT/AQ - Doesn't much matter, play about the same in 2-3 way pots as they do in mulit-pots. Arguably JJ/TT play worst in a 4-way pot. You want either more or fewer players.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You don't want a big multiway pot with AKo because 9 handed there's a big chance TPTK is no good. It's still EV+, but probably it's better to have less players for more bets than a lot of players limping.
AKs is different in that its suitedness can increase its winrate dramatically.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
You don't want a big multiway pot with AKo because 9 handed there's a big chance TPTK is no good. It's still EV+, but probably it's better to have less players for more bets than a lot of players limping.
|
AK gains value multi-way, just not tons and tons of it like AA/KK. In other words, you're going to lose a lot but come out way ahead in the long run. However, it certainly could be more sensitive to position than stronger holdings. AA/KK have some weird postitional numbers on PokerRoom suggesting that acting late pre-flop is more imporant with these holdings.
|
|
|
|
Xanadu
|
|
Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
|
|
Not raising premium hands preflop is a serious leak. These hands make the most money preflop and on the flop. Not raising these hands is a worse mistake than most loose calls preflop.
|
|
|
|
jmontis
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
|
|
AKo is a big winner for me, because I raise the bejesus out of it, 3-bet every time.
and ya, you want as many possible people seeing the flop with AA/KK.
I once had AA on the button in a 2-4 game, facing a table of limpers. I raised it, flopped a set, and took down a 30+ bb pot.
|
|
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jmontis
AKo is a big winner for me, because I raise the bejesus out of it, 3-bet every time.
|
I've been getting my ass kicked with it enough this month to start reveiwing some hands.
|
|
|
|
thenonsequitur
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jmontis
I once had AA on the button in a 2-4 game, facing a table of limpers. I raised it, flopped a set, and took down a 30+ bb pot.
|
I once had AA on the button in a 2-4 game, facing a table of limpers, flopped absolutely nothing to improve my hand, and still ended up taking down a big pot with just a pair of aces. AA is always a huge value bet preflop, no matter how many people are in the pot. I'd bet AA into a field of 22 opponents if I found myself in a game with that many players.
|
|
|
|
pokernewb
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
|
|
Thanks for the replies.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xanadu
Not raising premium hands preflop is a serious leak. These hands make the most money preflop and on the flop. Not raising these hands is a worse mistake than most loose calls preflop.
|
But if I was in a tight game in EP and was pretty sure everyone except maybe the big blind would fold to a raise, or maybe just one other person would call as well, then wouldn't I be making more money by limping and getting about 4 callers?
|
|
|
|
elipsesjeff
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jmontis
AKo is a big winner for me, because I raise the bejesus out of it, 3-bet every time.
|
I've been getting my ass kicked with it enough this month to start reveiwing some hands. |
Right, because I can fold to a raise preflop with AKo. Auto 3-bet every time.
|
Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
|
|
Shark Bait
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jmontis
AKo is a big winner for me, because I raise the bejesus out of it, 3-bet every time.
|
I've been getting my ass kicked with it enough this month to start reveiwing some hands. |
Right, because I can fold to a raise preflop with AKo. Auto 3-bet every time. |
What if a player before you limps, you raise with AKo, a player after you 3 bets, the big blind calls and the limper calls. cap or call? What could be changed here to make you play it differently?
|
|
<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
What if a player before you limps, you raise with AKo, a player after you 3 bets, the big blind calls and the limper calls. cap or call? What could be changed here to make you play it differently?
|
Two weeks ago I would have said "cap it" without hesitation. This week I'm not so sure...
|
|
|
|
|~|ypermegachi
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
|
|
[quote="Fnord"]
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
Two weeks ago I would have said "cap it" without hesitation. This week I'm not so sure...
|
i would expect that your laggy style tends to make this an easy cap considering the larger range of hands ppl will play against you...
|
|
|
|
pokernewb
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
|
|
How about AJo and KQo, how many players am I looking for with these. I'm probably way off here but is it similar to JJ/TT where I either want 2 or less or 4 or more?
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pokernewb
How about AJo and KQo, how many players am I looking for with these. I'm probably way off here but is it similar to JJ/TT where I either want 2 or less or 4 or more?
|
These hands have an edge 2 or 3 way against trash and/or dominated hands (position helps too.) Multi-way you're better off in an unraised pot so you can protect and put in extra bets with a big pair against worse holdings.
|
|
|
|
pokernewb
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
|
|
Cheers Fnord 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
the worse your holdings, the more sensitive they are to position and amount of people in the pot
suitedness gains value, connectedness gains value, pairs gain value
but big hands are so profitable that doesn't affect your decisions
Nevertheless, AKo doesn't have as much value in a 10 handed pot as in a heads-up raise pot. Especially if you have a hand dominated :)
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
Nevertheless, AKo doesn't have as much value in a 10 handed pot as in a heads-up raise pot. Especially if you have a hand dominated |
Wrong. You'll just win more big pots and fewer small ones.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
Nevertheless, AKo doesn't have as much value in a 10 handed pot as in a heads-up raise pot. Especially if you have a hand dominated :)
|
Wrong. You'll just win more big pots and fewer small ones. |
Computer simulations show otherwise.
I might say you probably want a little more action than heads up though.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
Nevertheless, AKo doesn't have as much value in a 10 handed pot as in a heads-up raise pot. Especially if you have a hand dominated |
Wrong. You'll just win more big pots and fewer small ones. |
Computer simulations show otherwise.
I might say you probably want a little more action than heads up though. |
Link? All the data I've seen says AKo gains value as the field gets bigger.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
Nevertheless, AKo doesn't have as much value in a 10 handed pot as in a heads-up raise pot. Especially if you have a hand dominated :)
|
Wrong. You'll just win more big pots and fewer small ones. |
Computer simulations show otherwise.
I might say you probably want a little more action than heads up though. |
Link? All the data I've seen says AKo gains value as the field gets bigger. |
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/
With 6 players to the river, it's FOURTIETH best. AA KK QQ JJ are first, second, third, and fourth respectively.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
That model as some horrible assumptions. Mason ripped it apart a long time ago. Real player data has backed up the assertion that AK gains value in loose games.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
That model as some horrible assumptions. Mason ripped it apart a long time ago. Real player data has backed up the assertion that AK gains value in loose games.
|
Link?
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...sb=5&o=&fpart=
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
