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asdpikas
Old 10-07-2009, 12:43 PM     Post subject: 99 #1 (permalink)  
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utg+1 is 18/7/0.6 over 60hands
villain is 17/11/2.6 over 409hands

Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 9
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls

Flop: (15.5 SB) 3, 6, 9 (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls

Turn: (10.75 BB) 4 (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls

River: (17.75 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls

Total pot: $79 (19.75 BB) | Rake: $3
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 10-07-2009, 01:39 PM #2 (permalink)  
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BennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of lightBennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of lightBennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of lightBennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of lightBennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of lightBennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of light
 I like it. Popping the turn forces out UTG+1 a lot of the time and on a relatively unscary board you might be tempted to keep him in the pot. There's no guarantee he'll call button's raise if you call though so your turn 3-bet is probably max value.
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Chopper
Old 10-07-2009, 02:29 PM #3 (permalink)  
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why didnt we 3bet flop? after all, you led out. i am thinking b/3b here is standard.

reasoning as to what changed your mind?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 10-07-2009, 03:26 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
why didnt we 3bet flop? after all, you led out. i am thinking b/3b here is standard.

reasoning as to what changed your mind?
to keep utg+1 in
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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Chopper
Old 10-07-2009, 04:35 PM #5 (permalink)  
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now, i feel that is dangerous. and, i want to see if people jump in here against the slowplay. its basically the same thing i did in the AA hand, but your holding is stronger. however, our read in the other hand was "better" at narrowing a range, imo, and here the board is a lot more drawy.

hmmm, debate? why can the AA hand be considered wrong, but this be considered "right?"
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 10-07-2009, 04:42 PM #6 (permalink)  
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well, if i 3bet the flop, he still gets 9.5-1 odds to call, so thats not much protection, my turn 3bet is better at that.
Also, I have the nuts, with a redraw if someone gets better.
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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asdpikas
Old 10-07-2009, 04:46 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
reasoning as to what changed your mind?
btw, i didnt change my mind, I was hoping the 2 in the middle would call and villain would raise, bloating the pot. I wasnt gonna 3bet unless they folded and it was HU.
Call it reversed relative position pot builder if u wish.
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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Chopper
Old 10-07-2009, 05:19 PM #8 (permalink)  
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you have a HUGE redraw AND the nuts on the flop. charge them all for the privilege to draw, imo. maybe thats a 25c/50c thing, but i will usually try a and jam as much money as reasonable in on a flopped set and wet board. if the flush completes on the turn, i still have 10 outs. but, i can also see UTG1 folding to a 3bet flop as well.

i figure you are giving UTG1 11:1 on a 3bet flop and he has to think about BTN capping....which you dont mind at all. i am not so concerned with "odds" and protection. i am concerned with my equity and want to maximize that.

this is a horrible pstove rendition, but i am trying to illustrate, very quickly, how much equity we have here vs the others. if they have some suited crap and over pairs, and we have the set, we are monsters in this pot. does that mean we slow down? i just dont like the idea of letting UTG1 draw at the flush, which i feel is a large part of his range. also, won't he call getting 11:1 on the flop anyway?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.882% 60.53% 00.35% 70515 405.00 { 99 }
Hand 1: 17.533% 17.19% 00.35% 20019 405.00 { JJ, AsKs }
Hand 2: 21.584% 21.24% 00.35% 24738 405.00 { AA, JsTs }


rethoughts?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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LawDude
Old 10-07-2009, 06:06 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I agree with Chopper. You can decide to slowplay this, but you didn't (and it was the right decision-- you got LOTS of bets into the pot on this one). Once you decide to donk the flop, and you get customers, keep on putting as many bets into the pot as possible. These guys are basically telling you that whatever they have is good enough to pay you off. So make them do it.
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KoRnholio
Old 10-07-2009, 06:39 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 I like it a lot. The donk-call/donk turn line just looks so weak (a hand like TT/A9 at best, or a flush draw+overs) that villains holding an overpair just can't help but raise the turn again for perceived value. This is especially good with UTG+1 on the raiser's right just calling before it gets popped again.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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asdpikas
Old 10-07-2009, 06:48 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
now, i feel that is dangerous. and, i want to see if people jump in here against the slowplay. its basically the same thing i did in the AA hand, but your holding is stronger. however, our read in the other hand was "better" at narrowing a range, imo, and here the board is a lot more drawy.

hmmm, debate? why can the AA hand be considered wrong, but this be considered "right?"
I think u answered yourself... (my caveat in brackets)
huge equity + redraws = push for value (if possible without shutting people out)

With AA i would have just good equity, not Humongous, so I would go into "shutout/win_this_right_now_if_possible_OMFG_this_pot_is_hu ge" mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
you have a HUGE redraw AND the nuts on the flop. charge them all for the privilege to draw, imo. maybe thats a 25c/50c thing, but i will usually try a and jam as much money as reasonable in on a flopped set and wet board. if the flush completes on the turn, i still have 10 outs. but, i can also see UTG1 folding to a 3bet flop as well.

i figure you are giving UTG1 11:1 on a 3bet flop and he has to think about BTN capping....which you dont mind at all. i am not so concerned with "odds" and protection. i am concerned with my equity and want to maximize that.

this is a horrible pstove rendition, but i am trying to illustrate, very quickly, how much equity we have here vs the others. if they have some suited crap and over pairs, and we have the set, we are monsters in this pot. does that mean we slow down? i just dont like the idea of letting UTG1 draw at the flush, which i feel is a large part of his range. also, won't he call getting 11:1 on the flop anyway?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.882% 60.53% 00.35% 70515 405.00 { 99 }
Hand 1: 17.533% 17.19% 00.35% 20019 405.00 { JJ, AsKs }
Hand 2: 21.584% 21.24% 00.35% 24738 405.00 { AA, JsTs }


rethoughts?
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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Chopper
Old 10-07-2009, 11:03 PM #12 (permalink)  
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i think you misunderstood me here. i wasnt proposing we do something different if we have AA in THIS hand. i was comparing it to my AA in "lunch hand VI."

i had AA and, not by you specifically, was being told not to slowplay it and let MP3 in.....just drive him out.

however, here, you are letting UTG1 stay in when you already have a customer going to war with you and you are offering UTG1 about 11:1 even if you 3bet the flop.

my argument/comment is to 3bet the flop BECAUSE we have so much equity + redraw. if we were forcing 2+ players to call a couple of bets here, i would agree to slow down and let someone else in. but, we would only be shutting one player out.....and he still has gutshot odds even if we 3bet.

i would be hoping for a capped flop, capped turn, and capped river here, personally. if the flush hits the turn, i try and keep it one bet. but, if not, i am going bonkers on a brickish turn because of my equity.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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