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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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Is it just me or are the SS 7EOB games unbelievably full of soft dead money?
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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To some extent I've noticed this with Razz too. The fish never raise or open when they should, and usually call when they shouldn't, it's a veritable forest of profit.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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How many hands of this game have you played Overflow? Do you have an extensive limit background? Do you understand game theory, hand reading in terms of open-board games, etc..?
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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I've played a few thousand hands of Razz, and I make an effort to make inferences about my opponents hole cards based on the open-cards on the table, their exposed cards, and their betting patterns. I know that your starting hand requirements for 7EOB are essentially hands that can go both ways e.g. 3-wheels with an Ace and 2+ flush cards, A broadway wheel-card all suited, 3 SF, and 3 1-gap SF under 7.
Tracking burned outs and implied burned outs based on my opponent's likely holding, raising on 6th and 7th with board lock to the low in multiway and usually even heads up pots. I.e. the top two of my low aren't beat by any board I'm up against. Getting high hands to fight with each other while you're going low. Raising strong draws, straight and/or flush draws with a decent low draw. Raising opponents with a weak made low knowing many of their outs are dead and they're likely to call anyways. Betting and raising made lows against high hands for fold equity on 5th and 6th. I'm obviously no "master of game theory". But I would like to think that open board games with bad players are much easier to beat than something like hold 'em where you only have a knowledge of 5 cards on the flop. It's also about knowing when to fold weak made lows, and draws. Again, counting burned outs, and figuring your opponents burned outs.
Obviously if I have a 4 flush and a gutshot with a backdoor low draw, but I see 12 of my outs burned on the board there isn't much sense in drawing unless I'm getting ridiculous odds.
I also like disguised low draws:
[As 2s] Kd
If I make a spade flush or a low, and I open raised with a K into a board of:
xxQ, xx9, xxJ, xx9, xxT, xx4, xx8
if the 4 folds I've got a really decent chance at getting deceptive value from my hand. And if I get lucky I might even scoop.
I've read Todd Brunson's section on EOB in S/S2 5 or 6 times, to get a feel for basic strategy. I'm no expert by any means, but open board games seem offer a lot of upside to logically thinking players. From what Ive noticed it's all about value betting freerolls to one half of the pot or the other, especially when you have outs to the side you're not locked on.
I understand the concept of reverse board inference as well, e.g. making bets and raises based not on what I'm holding, but my opponents perception of what I might or probably am holding.
IMHO, from the small sample of these games I've played most of the value you get in open board games comes from using your betting patterns to manipulate your opponents perception of your hand. This is much easier in open-board games than something like say hold'em. This also serves a dual purpose, as if a weak opponent catches you making a move once, or twice he becomes much more likely to pay you off in the future.
Again, I'm no expert but I've seen some EOB and Razz players @ 0.10/0.25 and 0.25/0.50 make some absolutely atrocious decisions.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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you sound much more intelligent about this game than you do NL
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
you sound much more intelligent about this game than you do NL
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Stud games tend to be much more straightforward than Hold 'Em (yes I know Hold 'Em is a variation of stud  ). Hold 'Em is a much more dynamic game, and as such much more difficult to conceptually comprehend. Also, if a smart player is going to choose between LO8 and 7EOB I don't see why you wouldn't choose 7EOB as you have a much better insight when you're drawing, or betting to quarter to your half.
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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It's also much easier to fold good looking starting hands in 7EOB than it is in Hold 'Em or Omaha because in full ring 20%+ of the deck is face up to you before you even decide whether or not to play your hand.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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EOB and Razz players @ 0.10/0.25 and 0.25/0.50
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No one playing any game at these limits (not PL or NL) is going to have a clue about poker.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by overflow
Hold 'Em is a much more dynamic game, and as such much more difficult to conceptually comprehend.
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How?
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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My line of thinking is that any game in which less information is available to the player, and bets can be arbitrary in size (with modest regulation e.g. minraises) has to invariably be more dynamic conceptually than a fixed limit game where much more information is available to the player. Again, I could be very wrong in my line of thinking.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by overflow
My line of thinking is that any game in which less information is available to the player, and bets can be arbitrary in size (with modest regulation e.g. minraises) has to invariably be more dynamic conceptually than a fixed limit game where much more information is available to the player. Again, I could be very wrong in my line of thinking.
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If holdem was played with a rule where no player could look at his/her hole cards, the game would be identical except each player would have less information. This variation of holdem would therefore be more complex and conceptually dynamic than the original. [sic]
It seems pretty obvious that the more information there is to process, the more complex a game is likely to be.
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