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Fnord

10-24-2004, 04:50 AM Post subject: 77 Hand to talk about

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

BB is a habitual bluffer
Button is really loose, but plays well post-flop

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 7

, 7

.
UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A

, 4

, A

(5 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls, Fnord raises, BB 3-bets, Button calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 2

(3 players)
Fnord checks, BB checks, Button bets, Fnord folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. Button wins 8 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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lonnie

10-24-2004, 09:36 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Fnord - when did you figure you were beat? On the 3 bet of the flop I would assume. Why not lay your hand down right there and not pay the additional bet? Were you calling that raise just to see if a 7 fell off on the turn?

Fnord

10-24-2004, 09:38 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lhoney2

I knew I was beat when the button (loose/tricky player) called 2 cold (and the BB happened to 3-bet too), and yes I called the 3-bet in hopes of spiking a 7. Implied odds are there big time.

I suppose an agrument could be made for just calling this down, but I didn't want anyone to pair up a bigger card cheap...

Another good argument is that it's a piss small pot to be be picking a fight with these guys over...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

lonnie

10-24-2004, 10:18 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

CARDSON

Quote:

and yes I called the 3-bet in hopes of spiking a 7. Implied odds are there big time.

Can you explain this one to me? I usually don't get too deep into the math of the game, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how you have implied odds for the call if you ARE reasonably certain your opp has the A at this point. Sure, you can spike the 7, but don't you have to also factor in another pair showing on the board or someone else holding a higher pocket pair?

How much could you have netted from that pot vs. the odds of spiking that 7?

OK, while I was writing this, I caught this hand at Party. Speaking of spiking 7's! Geez.

***** Hand History for Game 1095344421 *****
$0.5/$1 Hold'em - Sunday, October 24, 06:11:40 EDT 2004
Table Blue lagoon (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: broddan_1 ( $20 )
Seat 3: cashuall ( $36.25 )
Seat 5: rurede ( $15.25 )
Seat 7: lordorc1 ( $4.25 )
Seat 9: mysmartin ( $30.5 )
Seat 4: lhoney2 ( $29.25 )
Seat 8: chickenblue ( $1 )
Seat 6: nonzens ( $22 )
Seat 2: nirvanas27 ( $7.5 )
chickenblue posts small blind [$0.25].
mysmartin posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lhoney2 [ 7s 7d ]
broddan_1 calls [$0.5].
nirvanas27 calls [$0.5].
cashuall calls [$0.5].
lhoney2 calls [$0.5].
rurede calls [$0.5].
nonzens folds.
lordorc1 folds.
chickenblue is all-In.
mysmartin folds.
broddan_1 calls [$0.5].
nirvanas27 calls [$0.5].
cashuall calls [$0.5].
aikibo has joined the table.
lhoney2 calls [$0.5].
rurede calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, 7h, Kh ]
broddan_1 checks.
nirvanas27 bets [$0.5].
cashuall calls [$0.5].
lhoney2 calls [$0.5].
rurede calls [$0.5].
broddan_1 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
broddan_1 checks.
nirvanas27 bets [$1].
cashuall calls [$1].
lhoney2 raises [$2].
rurede folds.
broddan_1 folds.
nirvanas27 raises [$2].
cashuall folds.
lhoney2 raises [$2].
nirvanas27 calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ]
nirvanas27 bets [$1].
lhoney2 raises [$2].
nirvanas27 is all-In.
lhoney2 shows [ 7s, 7d ] four of a kind, sevens.
chickenblue doesn't show [ Ad, 8s ] two pairs, kings and sevens.
nirvanas27 doesn't show [ Kc, Td ] a full house, Kings full of sevens.
lhoney2 wins $15 from side pot #1 with four of a kind, sevens.
lhoney2 wins $6 from the main pot with four of a kind, sevens.

Fnord

10-24-2004, 10:24 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lhoney2

Even if it's close, I'm still calling anyway because raising then folding to a 3 bet on the flop just sets you up for someone else to run over you. Also figure that once a blue moon or so, the turn gets checked through...

You should work through the math, it would be a worthwhile exercise...

Oh, and per the hand you posted. You're usually better off raising the flop but it's always a stituational decision. Particularly when you run into players who fold to turn raises but make loose flop calls. Heck, expect naked Aces to cold call 2 on the flop with that flop in a raised multi-pot, the flush draw is going nowhere until the river card is shown and any King will probably make it to showdown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

lonnie

10-24-2004, 10:34 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

I hesitated on that play then just decided to call...knew that would draw some criicism. I knew I would get action from the K if someone held it. Was so stunned, I was oblivious to the flush draw. Good point.

Too bad my opp had to go all in, I know he would've capped the river if he had more chips.

lonnie

10-24-2004, 10:54 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

You should work through the math, it would be a worthwhile exercise...

There is a lot more complex math that could be done, to figure out the odds of your opp making the full house, even if you do make yours, but based on the idea that you will only continue the hand if you make the 7 on the turn...

You are 23.5:1 to turn a 7, and you are paying .5 BB to stay in the hand. You would need to assume you could net ~13BB on the hand to make the call. Going into the turn, you can net 5 BB, so you would need to get your lone opponent to cap both the turn and river bets to make it to +13BB.

Possibly this could happen, but I don't know how exactly to factor in that your opponent may fill his hand up by pairing the 4, or catching the 4th ace, which would provide him with 4 outs to beat your 7's full on the river.

The implied odds may be there, because if your opp holds the A then he WILL bet strongly, but I don't know if it will be a capped turn and river. If the river is another diamond, you may have trouble getting more than a bet or two in with your opp putting you on a possible flush.

Interesting hand. You didn't have implied odds to call the 3 bet - assuming that you would always lay the hand down on the turn after not spiking the 7. There is no math to account for the hit to your 'table image', though I'm not convinced it would take such a devastating blow on this one laydown.

After really studying this hand - implied odds are tough and almost impossible to figure out on the fly. Guess this will be my next area of study. I think I have been laying too many hands down on the turn.

BTW - you were right, it was worthwhile. Hopefully it is also correct.

Fnord

10-24-2004, 10:57 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lhoney2

You are 23.5:1 to turn a 7, and you are paying .5 BB to stay in the hand. You would need to assume you could net ~13BB on the hand to make the call. Going into the turn, you can net 5 BB, so you would need to get your lone opponent to cap both the turn and river bets to make it to +13BB.

Going into the turn there are 7BB in the pot and 2 other players in the hand that might pay off. But yeah, it's probably a fold...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

lonnie

10-24-2004, 10:59 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

Going into the turn there are 7BB in the pot.

Right..I wasn't counting the money you had put in the pot which I should have. So you would only need a capped turn and a raised river to get correct odds. Or 3 bet on both.

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